Mapping out The City.

Solabusca on 12/9/2005 at 06:30

Quote Posted by Sxerks

The Earth talisman in the Mages' Tower is above ground.
Also:
From the briefing video:
"They live isolated beyond the city"
Mages, the Hand Brotherhood

So the Mage Towers are beyond the city, so the arrow on the keepers map points to a location outside the city, not to X marks the spot.

Actually, it points in the direction outside the City.

Quote Posted by Sxerks

Some other thing from Thief Gold to ponder over.
A conversation from the Thieves Guild mission:

T1: When partners fight it's never good.
T2: I heard that, we get Donal on the South side and Rueben on the North, if something goes down we'll be caught in the middle of it.

I'm not sure if this implies that the Overlords Fancy is in the middle of the North and South Quarter, or just North and South in that general area.

Just north and south of the general area - they've also got access to their homes at the north and south end of the sewer complex that the Downwinder's have taken over and converted into their base of operations. If you take a look at the maps, it's pretty apparent.

.j.

MorbusG on 12/9/2005 at 08:51

Quote Posted by Solabusca

How does suggesting that a neighbourhood we've already decided exists is a sub-section of a larger, KNOWN TO BE SPLIT section (The Barricades, etc) quarter argue your point? With positive backing by location names (Shalebridge Cradle) no less?

Stonemarket exists on the TDS map. It's a seperate section, patrolled by it's own Watch officers.

I understood you didn't accept the thought of Stonemarket being a subdistrict of Old quarter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sysqc
... I just wanted to say that isn't it easy to think new market as part of southquarter? same way as stone market a part of old quarter? Then there is no need to read "south quarter" in the maps, right?

Except that Stone Market is listed on the full City Map from TDS. As is South Quarter and Old Quarter.

To clarify a bit, by "no need to read south quarter in the maps", I meant the Assassins and Keepers grotto maps.

Quote Posted by Solabusca

Proof? Please explain further, because you've lost me here.

We can see the approximate location of Clocktower in T3 Stonemarket map. We know from in-game that the tower is sabotaged and it points to keeper Orlands balcony in keeper library. We know from in-game that keeper library and keeper compound in Old quarter are connected through a tunnel. All this is making a point about the size of Stonemarket. Which then would break old quarter into 2 separate parts if SM would not be a subdistrict of OQ. Walled section is part of OQ, and is actually referred to as "The walled section of Old quarter". Ie. it doesn't break or split or make odd shape of OQ.

Quote Posted by Solabusca

I'd take a look at your diagram, but don't have the means.

I'll try and make a paths-based version of it so it could be used in Gimp.

str8g8 on 12/9/2005 at 09:07

Quote:

If Stone market would be a district in the same sense as Old quarter, it would create an odd shape for Old quarter - something you criticized earlier if I understood correctly.

What I've been suggesting is that we make some kind of distinction between Quarters and Districts. There is no basis for this within the game, but it helps the cohesiveness of the map (and lets face it, it needs all the help it can get :) ). There is a precedence for this in Real Life however ... For instance, you can talk collectively about the East End of London, which is technically made up of many inidvidual boroughs (Hackney, Walthamstow etc).

Quarters, Districts
North Quarter, Hightowne
South Quarter
New Quarter, Newmarket
Old Quarter, Downtowne, Stonemarket, Sealed Section
Shalesbridge, Darkside
Shoalsgate
Auldale
Dayport, North Dayport, South Dayport
Eastport
Wayside, Docks

This is all implied by Colour and Typeface on my (http://www.str8g8.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/downloads/city_map.png) map (except, Wayside and Docks, which just occurred to me after someone's comment on here).

I stress again that this system is entirely my own invention, I just think that it makes the City a bit more 3-dimensional.

cheers
str8g8

242 on 12/9/2005 at 10:37

My thoughts.

Firstly, I have zero doubts that the picture a bit earlier in the thread depicts Karath Din, as it looked in the past. It was discussed already, and as far as I remebrer, all agreed. When the picture is shown in the briefing, Garrett is talking specifically about a place which was called the Lost City. Usually (actually almost always) visuals correspond to spoken lines in the briefings. The obelisk, typical for Karath Din piece of architecture, further affirms the conclusion. We know that KD was very developed, and no wonder it could have mediaeval looking buildings.

Secondly, I think that Stonemarket is a separate quarter, exactly as it shown on the TDS map, unlike Shoalsgate. Mere presence of Shoalsgate Station and Shoalsgate Tavern isn't enough to consider Shoalsgate as a quarter. We haven't any ingame proof (no map, no converstion) for that. The known quarters already were very well considered in the past by brainstorming, why do it again?

They are:
+Old Quarter
+New Market
+Hightowne
+Downtowne
+South Quarter
+North Quarter
+Shalebridge
+Wayside
+Dayport
+Eastport
+New Quarter
+Stonemarket
+Auldale

13 known quarters, that's it.

city_map.png (link to which was posted here not so long ago, don't remember who was author) depicted them very well.

PS: by "quarters" I mean major sections of the City, not subsections like Shoalsgate.

Solabusca on 12/9/2005 at 10:37

Quote Posted by str8g8

Now you're hitting it. This is what I've been trying to suggest - and this is also why I think Shalebridge doesn't necessarily need to be where you've placed

Take a look - it ties in with the servant dialogue, it ties in with Ambush, and it ties in with both our stances!

Inline Image:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v739/solabusca/city_map_Shalebridge.png

Solabusca on 12/9/2005 at 10:45

Quote Posted by 242

242, I have to vehemently disagree - the architecture is classic Contemporary City, right down to the stone keep off in the distance. The line uttered when the image in question comes up is as follows:

"The Keepers have hidden the Talisman of Fire in a place they call the lost city". The image zooms in on the river, and the sound of lapping water can be heard. I'd take that to mean they've hidden the entry in the river, wouldn't you?

It's a shot of City Now, zooming in on the hiding point where the key is. THEN it fades to an image of the crumbling Lost City.

Quote:

Secondly, I think that Stonemarket is a separate district, exactly as it shown on the TDS map, unlike Shoalsgate. Mere presence of Shoalsgate Station and Shoalsgate Tavern isn't enough to consider Shoalsgate as a district. We haven't any ingame proof (no map, no converstion) for that. The known districts already were very well considered in the past by brainstorming, why do it again?

Because, quite frankly, some of the past brainstorming has been rendered null and void. Take a look at older entries in this thread, and older entries in other threads regarding the same topic, and you'll stumble across errors not apparent prior to the release of TDS. We're continuing on in spite of faulty beginnings, meaning that we should sometimes step back and reassess past decisions.

str8g8 on 12/9/2005 at 12:11

Well, after finally going back and viewing the cutscene in context, I have to agree with 242 - the image is meant to be a shot of Karath-Din ... the way the shots are set up creates a contrast between "before" (idyllic, couple on a balcony, lanterns across the river) and "after" (smoking ruins) ... in fact I think this is why the image was such a surprise to me, because it had never registered as a shot of the City in the first place. Also, that's definately an obelisk in the distance.

On the other hand, I don't think this necessarily invalidates the point that Shalebridge COULD be a part of Old Quarter. Sol's midification does tie up a few loose ends. Maybe the servants conversation has taken on a distorted signigficance since there has been so much wrangling over it. Possibly it is more important to create a link with the Cradle and so on. I'm still thinking about it. :erg:

The point about Shoalsgate is well made, but I never presented it as fact, I stated openly that it was a bit of creative licence. It comes down to what kind of map you want. We are not trying to reproduce the devs map and set it in stone, we are making a working document for the modding community, which can be built on. In this case a little creative freedom is required to make the whole thing come together ... as long as it doesn't contradict the canon, I think that's what most of us want to see.

If you want to place Shoalsgate solely according to "fact" or in-game evidence then ... well, you would just have to leave it out completely. :(

cheers
str8g8

bukary on 12/9/2005 at 12:40

Sorry to interrupt your disscussion... I am trying to translate the most important names from TDS City into Polish. Could you explain what exactly might Auldale, Shalebridge and Stonemarket mean?

Solabusca on 12/9/2005 at 13:48

Quote Posted by str8g8

Like I said, I think the slow zoom in on the river, coupled with the sound of water gurgling that increases as the zoom progresses, has to do with the hidden location of the Lost City, and the image is of the Currect City itself. That's my own interpretation: As Garret could not possibly have any idea what TLC looked like before it collapsed, I don't see why the designers would show an image of it.

The architecture on the right side of the screen, the layout of the bridge, the cicular windows with crossbars in them - these are all classic City elements. At the top left side of the image is a hammerite sigil-window.

I will state once more that my feelings are that this is the City as it stands now, not some distant vision of the Lost City.

On the plus side, we can see mountains in the distance - if we posit that the mountains are to the West of the City (see World Map Project), we've got an image that backs it up - we can place the guards home in relation to Angelwatch, if it matters to anyone.

Oh, and as an aside, the presence of an obelisk in no way indicates that it's TLC - it may be a monument indicating an important site in the city (gates to the west, etc.)

.j.

str8g8 on 12/9/2005 at 14:45

Quote:

Sorry to interrupt your disscussion... I am trying to translate the most important names from TDS City into Polish. Could you explain what exactly might Auldale, Shalebridge and Stonemarket mean?

Aulddale
"Auld" is an archaic form of old, "dale" is an old word for valley in certain parts of UK like the Yorkshire Dales, where there are places like Airdale, Wharfedale etc).

Shalebridge
Bridge you know, but Shale can mean a kind of sedimentary rock, but could also be a corruption of "shallow".

Stonemarket
Market you will know, and stone too I guess, it probaby derives from the building of a specially built "stone" marketplace or something.