Mapping out The City.

Shadow Play on 9/9/2005 at 12:22

I seem to recall that image being brought up sometime in the far past - wasn't there a question as to whether or not that was actually a picture of Karath-Din?

Of course, The City is built on Karath-Din, but since the entire thing was buried underground, any rivers depicted as part of it might have been substantially altered by the extreme geological activity.

MorbusG on 9/9/2005 at 13:26

Quote Posted by str8g8

Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly

Wow. I get the feeling everything has been tried already :D

Quote Posted by str8g8

It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well. :)

Indeed, BUT, and this is a big BUT: Shalebridge road in Ambush! If we take again the easiest way, and think it's the one on the east shore of t3 city map going N-S, then it's easier to build a relation to it ála Auldale street.

Quote Posted by str8g8

There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern

Ok, nice. I wasn't aware of the Tavern. It makes more sense after knowing that.

Quote Posted by str8g8

btw, sysqc, your map currently places the Hammerite Temple in the Sealed Section.

Grah. Do you mean 'Strange bedfellows'? The talisman you see in TG grotto map? I never understood the grotto map talisman pictures.

MorbusG on 9/9/2005 at 14:36

Quote Posted by Shadow Play

I seem to recall that image being brought up sometime in the far past - wasn't there a question as to whether or not that was actually a picture of Karath-Din?

I have a very hard time trying to believe that. Being in a briefing video for lost city doesn't mean it's from lost city (remember, the mission begins with actually finding the entrance from new market). You can see some people on the balcony on the left, too.

Solabusca on 9/9/2005 at 14:58

Quote Posted by str8g8

Well, lotsof things to get to grips with here

It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well. :)

About as much tongue-biting as assuming the HT=SQ... something I'm becoming more and more convinced can't be so, thanks to this little side-turn in conversation!

Once again, for me it just ties together a bridge, an abandoned orphanage, and the fact that we have no other in-game map references to it beyond an arrow in Ambush! Again, (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12472) this old thread was fun to peruse if only to see how far things have advanced (and to see how confounded some other things may have become as a result!)

Quote:

Shoalsgate
Shoalsgate does involve some creative licence ... fact is there isn't much information to go on one way or the other. There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern, so there is at least the implication that it is a district or area of some kind ...

Indeed, good call, and I don't think anyone's debating the existance as a district.

Side note one - a shoal is defined as 'a sandbank or sandbar that makes the water shallow; specifically : an elevation which is not rocky and on which there is a depth of water of six fathoms (11 meters) or less' ... the -gate suffix in names tends to imply an entrance/exit to a specific section or city. I'd warrant that Shoalsgate is found at a point in the River that is shallow, and most likely served as a toll-point on the way upriver, initially.

Side note two - how far does Truart have to travel to get to ShG? We know that there must be a few watch stations spread around the City (hey, they even co-opt a tavern or two in TDS), and more than a few prisons - the Hammers have Cragscleft outside of town, we know... there's Pavelock and Shoalsgate, as well.

Quote:

Home Turf
That Home Turf = South Quarter isn't categorical fact (what is?) but I think we'd be stretching things too much and for the wrong reasons to pretend otherwise.

The more I ponder it, the more certain I become that HT is not SQ in Assassins.

Quote:

Implications
If we move Shalesbridge however, it means there is no need to put a crook in the river ...

Wouldn't be the first time aesthetics entered into the equation - we have no in-game indication that the river bends like this, if memory serves. It was just a convenient way of forcing the mapping ideas to fit at the time. Now, the plus side is that since we know from in-game artwork that the city has more than a few hills (even shown in the levelled menu pic in TDS), it could account for such a curve.

Oh, aside - there's a dialogue that refers to Wayside (no Docks suffix) as a district of whores and money-mongers. I'm guessing that's the name of the full district, and the Wayside Docks are found within... just throwing that out there.

.j.

Mugla on 9/9/2005 at 17:02

Quote:

The more I ponder it, the more certain I become that HT is not SQ in Assassins.

Solabusca: Then why not mark hometurf up north too? In making maps, the most obvious choice is usually the most used, no?

Inline Image:

http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/maybe_the_smaller_river.png
Shadow Play: Indeed, we did discuss that the obelisk there in the horizon suggested the scene to be 'from olden times, when the shown River-fork wasn't sealed off by the Hammerites yet', but the medievalish castles suggested otherwise.
(Sidenote; we can see the range of mountains that encircle the City, and the vale that was suggested to be the exit through Shalebridge and Shoalsgate to the caravan-routes outside).
On the other side of the scales, we can see the 'River' in-game in Assassins!, and if you remember it, it's mostly an underground canal, just like in Baffords, Ambush! and Sealed Section. Whatever the river-fork in the Keeper-map was, it got paved over as we can see.
So perhaps we 'see' the mouth of the canal exit into the River there? Perhaps it is an 'old image'? Or something completely unrelated? Or perhaps it looked like that at the time the seal was placed (same time as the Keeper-map was made); which begs the question, do we have definitive knowledge that it was sealed because the talisman was placed there, or was it an old seal to keep people out of their ancestral home, and just got an extra use with the talisman(s)?

Quote:

Shalesbridge
Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly there. Mugla kinda convinced me otherwise ... well, I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe he should remind us why?

str8g8: ...And I believe it might had been just the above-mentioned in-game evidence, no? Woult that had been enough to convince you, can't recall?

Quote:

It's not often that I change my desktop wallpaper. Now I did.

Darn right it's stunning.

Hehe... Umm... :o :erm: Me too...

Back for more later. Nice to be workin with you guys every now and then.

Solabusca on 9/9/2005 at 17:42

Quote Posted by Mugla

Solabusca: Then why not mark hometurf up north too? In making maps, the most obvious choice is usually the most used, no?

Yes. Except who made the map (in-game, at least)? Garret. He lists all the other neighborhoods, but doesn't list SQ - maybe he's heading for a safe-house, or making his way back through the city - or maybe, just maybe, Ramirez has some incorrect information.

.j.

Mugla on 9/9/2005 at 18:44

Very good. Atleast I can agree with the reasoning as an alternative; up until Ramirez. That I hope we can still use as a piece of evidence somehow.
I'll have to think on these things for a bit more... :p

MorbusG on 9/9/2005 at 19:26

Quote Posted by Mugla

Whatever the river-fork in the Keeper-map was, it got paved over as we can see.
So perhaps we 'see' the mouth of the canal exit into the River there? Perhaps it is an 'old image'?

Why take the hard route? Isn't it easier to think the picture is up-to-date and showing the upstream (ie. the beginning of the river)?
The river, which after that point is man-made into canal network.
Seems easier to me, more credible.
Although.. if it would picture the exit, it would make nice opportunity for Shalebridge to jump in there somewhere, whereas in upstream it wouldn't fit next to new market, as it looks like hightowne is to the north of new market.
I was a bit lost in the conversation about HomeTurf mark (I mixed HT for being HighTowne), but now that I know what is talked about, I just wanted to say that isn't it easy to think new market as part of southquarter? same way as stone market a part of old quarter? Then there is no need to read "south quarter" in the maps, right?

Solabusca on 9/9/2005 at 19:42

Quote Posted by sysqc

... I just wanted to say that isn't it easy to think new market as part of southquarter? same way as stone market a part of old quarter? Then there is no need to read "south quarter" in the maps, right?

Except that Stone Market is listed on the full City Map from TDS. As is South Quarter and Old Quarter.

.j.

MorbusG on 9/9/2005 at 22:06

Maybe because they are places you can visit in game? You know, for us silly little xbox players; we can check from the manual where we are 'n'stuff.

Could some one please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, answer my question: what are the talisman marks on the thief gold keepers grotto map?
Are they somehow pointing at underground locations? Or am I just really, really stupid not understanding them? Thanks.