str8g8 on 8/9/2005 at 10:11

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Yes, it keeps coming up, doesn't it? I can only repeat what was discussed in this thread before - and it was discussed, quite a lot, probably more than any other single topic.

The river the servants are discussing is the big River - if they were talking about the little tributory you actually see in Assassins then why are they so surprised to see it so low and why would NM be horrified ... you could just jump across anyway. It only makes sense in the context of a Big River.

On the other hand, their comments don't dictate Shalebridge is directly bordering New Market, and in fact we have 2 good maps (the keeper map you posted and Garrett's hand-drawn Assassin map) which show New Market and Old Qaurter but make no mention of Shalebridge.

So, it doesn't have to be directly across at all, just across. But it does have to be across the main river.

In my map the relationship between New Market and Shalebridge is still there - if you were a beggar who walked across the River at Shalebridge, then New Market would be the first well-to-do area you would come across, and you wouldn't have far to go either. :)

Also, I just don't see OQ as unwieldy :erg: ... it occupies quite a logical space within the elbow of the river. It seems quite tidy to me, especially, as I say, if we consider Downtowne and Stone Market districts to be part of the Old Quarter (as I've tried to indicate on the map with different font sizes and similar colours...)

As always though the test of any theory is to put it into practice. If you can come up with a better arrangement then post it, and if we can make it fly then it will get assimilated. :)

cheers
str8g8

Solabusca on 8/9/2005 at 11:22

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Take a look at some historical maps - city sections just don't sprawl and twist that way! Neighbourhoods tend to be bounded by wall (in medieval locales) or other geographical boundaries.

Check it out -

LONDON.
(http://www.britainshistory.com/downloads/maps/london/image/london_boroughs.jpg)

AMSTERDAM
(http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/travel/dg/maps/f4/750x750_amsterdam_m.gif)

NEW YORK
(http://nyctmc.org/images/fiveboroughs_4boroughs.gif)

PARIS
(http://www.parisbreak.co.uk/images/paris-plan.jpg)

PRAGUE
(http://www.ibs-sro.cz/images/Living_in_Prague/Map%20of%20Prague.jpg)

VENICE
(http://www.umich.edu/~hartspc/histart/VENICE/venicemap2.gif)

Some fantasy examples for you:

SANCTUARY
(http://www.home.earthlink.net/~jcook16682/sanctuary.jpg)

LANKHMAR (if ever a city inspired the City, it was Lankhmar)
(http://www.worldofskell.com/POV%20Images/Lankhmar1.gif)
(http://home.vicnet.net.au/~qbird/maps/gfdist2.gif)

str8g8 - I admire your talent, and think you've done an insane amount of work for the project, but if you look at these examples, you'll see that it's pretty clear that cities don't form like that. I think you're clinging to a theory you like in spite of the growing arguement against it, primarily because it's something you've been working so damn hard on - and again, you have my thanks for all the work you've put into this.

You've invested a lot in your theories - and I appreciate that - but I still think that your current map isn't ringing quite true. I'm only trying to help. (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=155774#post155774) I've been interested in the outcome for a hell of a long time, you see.


.j.

[EDIT - Sweet mother-jumping Hades. I've been hard at work on this and another project all bloody night - and I've got to be awake in around three hours to get ready for the workday! AUUUUUUGH! Evil debator, to make me suffer so... and tonight is my Karaoke night, so sleep don't come soon enough!]

MorbusG on 8/9/2005 at 13:46

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After I watched again the cutscene B09.avi from TDP (lost city), I can't help but think that the (http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/maybe_the_smaller_river.png) smaller river isn't as small as you see in assassins.
Another (http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/garrett_home.png) image I took from CS06.avi showing G's apartments surroundings.

MorbusG on 8/9/2005 at 21:58

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@solabusca
Nice try there, but as str8g8 said, the assassins map can't be located there.
(heh, I tried it myself, actually :) )
A little more up, though, and it would actually fit pretty nicely. Hmm, I'll be back to this later.

@str8g8
Well I want to thank you, too, for all the hard work you've done for this project. While I'm still waiting for your comment about the smaller river, I just wanted you to (http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/mikko_t3_13.png) see the "easiest" solution *if* it was the smaller river talked upon in the infamous river-low conversation.

Your current layout is acceptable at the moment to me, with two exceptions: 1) Shalebride. While I can see the long, long reasonings behind it, it doesn't make me a happy man. However, I can, with some tongue biting, accept it.
2) Shoalsgate. Was it purely to make balance over districts over both sides of river? Imaginatory district, but again, some tongue biting should get me over it.
I hope I didn't sound too rude, it was not my intention (it comes with the fennoscandic genes)

str8g8 on 9/9/2005 at 09:13

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Well, lotsof things to get to grips with here

http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/thief/maybe_the_smaller_river.png

sysqc: that's a really good find ... definately something that we have overlooked up until now, I believe.

Shalesbridge
Out of interest, I refer you guys to page 11 of this thread where in an earlier incarnation of the map I put Shalebridge exactly (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/core_map.png) there. Mugla kinda convinced me otherwise ... well, I'm not so sure anymore. Maybe he should remind us why? ;)

It might me simpler, but it does invlolve a slight-of-hand in assuming Shalebridge is part of Old Quarter, and assuming that the keeper and Assassin maps completely fail to mention it. That involves a fair bit of tongue-biting as well. :)

Shoalsgate
Shoalsgate does involve some creative licence ... fact is there isn't much information to go on one way or the other. There is a Shoalsgate Station and a Shoalsgate Tavern, so there is at least the implication that it is a district or area of some kind ... and other then that, yes, it served a purpose by filling a hole between Shalesbridge and Auldale.

Home Turf
That Home Turf = South Quarter isn't categorical fact (what is?) but I think we'd be stretching things too much and for the wrong reasons to pretend otherwise.

Implications
If we move Shalesbridge however, it means there is no need to put a crook in the river ... it also means there is no need for Shoalsgate there ... also the city becomes quite unbalanced again ... In fact, this will change the entire character of the present map, which I actually like ... :(

btw, sysqc, your map currently places the Hammerite Temple in the Sealed Section.

@mol: I'm honoured :)
and everyone else who like the site and artwork, thanks! I'll hopefully be posting some more paintings in the future, stay tuned.

cheers
str8g8