Mapping out The City.

str8g8 on 15/8/2005 at 11:33

I confess that the 1369 thing doesn't bother me much. The City is a mysterious place after all. :) Winston Ave might carry on all the way round the left bank, following the river all the way to Shalebridge. Or it could have been such a road, and dwindled with each phase of building, and yet retained its house numbering which now makes no sense. Plus we know the City is very densely populated. In the UK, house numbering is odd (1,3,5,7,9 etc) on one side of the street, even on the other, so your're possibly talking room for 700 houses or so.

Remember this is an unplanned "medieval" style area of the city (Docks, South Quarter, Old Quarter etc). I think the Manhatten analogy more suited to places like Auldale and New Quarter, which might well have been built on a grid (the Dayport map shows some evidence of this).

Quote:

"The lack of planning evident in the closeness of buildings... strange twist of a street."

what was the quote in full?

Having said all that, I will incorporate some things from this new plan, like the joining together of those dead ends, which seem very sensible.

cheers
str8g8

Bronze Griffin on 15/8/2005 at 15:42

I love this thread. :)

Fish-face on 15/8/2005 at 17:23

I think that was pretty much the quote, there. From the bits and pieces that we have for certain - Ambush! map, LotP map and the T3 city sections it appears that such an organised layout for the entire City is highly unlikely.

Doc_Brown on 16/8/2005 at 05:50

Quote Posted by str8g8

Doc_Brown: go ahead and make some suggestions for placement, I wasn't planning on any updates to this.

I'll return to the placement suggestions in a bit; that's going to take some work, especially sorting out the gambling dens...

Quote Posted by str8g8

the general consensus seems to be Shalebridge is a bit run-down

Alright, alright, I'll let the Shalebridge issue pass. ;) I suppose I just got fixated on the notion of the eastside being uniformly nicer than the west bank...

Quote Posted by 242

I'm going over to the Crippled Burrick for a drink, then it's back here for more paperwork.

Hmm, interesting. Unless franchises existed in The City, this bears consideration. Like the aforementioned placements, though, this will take some time to fully explore.

Quote Posted by 242

The only objection I have is that NewMarket should probably be adjacent to the River, becuase of the known converstion of servants in Bafford's Manor.

I wonder... would it be possible to include the section of Old Quarter sandwiched (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map.png) here between Hightowne, New Market, Downtown, and Shalebridge road as a part of New Market as well? 'twould solve the 'walk across' comment, unless there's some evidence to block such a move.

Quote Posted by sysqc

But, I have to question the decision of different homes in t1&t2 and t3?

It's simple, really. We get to see Garrett's home in T2 and T3, and they're clearly different. Narratively, Garrett had to flee to Shalebridge after his place was raided in Ambush!, so it makes sense that he'd relocated. Whether or not his T1 pad was the same as in T2 is open to debate, though I subscribe to the theory that Garrett has at least two different apartments at all times, anyway.

Quote Posted by Bronze Griffin

I love this thread. :)

That makes it all worthwhile. :thumb:

mol on 16/8/2005 at 06:26

Quote Posted by Bronze Griffin

I love this thread. :)

I've said it before and I say it again, this is hands-down the most consistently interesting thread in the whole of TTLG. My admiration for the primus motors of this fascinating thread holds no bounds.

This truly makes Thief feel even more real. It's almost as if the place could've existed, yet not, much like the Middle-Earth.

Astounding work, I'm quite simply in awe of it all.

MorbusG on 16/8/2005 at 06:48

Quote Posted by Doc_Brown

Narratively, Garrett had to flee to Shalebridge after his place was raided in Ambush!, so it makes sense that he'd relocated.

A-ha! For some odd reason, I didn't come to think of that. Yes, makes perfect sense now. Sorry for taffing.

I just realized that makes things interesting (TDP CS06.avi & Waterfountain).
I'll be back after I'll get my wacom intuos3.

Quote Posted by Doc_Brown

Unless franchises existed in The City

Man, you have good imagination. I realize this was propably intended as a joke, but indeed, why not (if it would solve possible problems)?

Solabusca on 16/8/2005 at 09:11

As an odd aside question, does anyone recall where The Wall district is mentioned? (We know it's a sub-district in outside the Barricades in the Old Quarter, but I can't recall where it's mentioned). Any other 'sub-districts' that can be recalled off the tops of our heads?

Zany, quick one-off idea that may help out - we know from Ramirez's notes that Raputo is the Shalebridge warden, and from Ambush that Garret runs there when times are tough... but what if it's actually a sub-district of the OQ vs. a full district on it's own? That might tie-in the fact that the Cradle is there as well...

Ah well... it's very early, and I'm very rambly, having not slept for many long hours, and I'll probably regret this post in the morning...

[EDIT: The Shalebridge tangent got me to thinking - there's a few subdivisions of the Old Quarter already - at least two, with the Wall, and the Barricades (the sealed off section). Why not a third or fourth? Old Quarter proper, and Shalebridge, for the area near the crossover point? Feel free to disregard - this is also rambling to myself for the SavWorlds conversion I'm working on.]

.j.

theBlackman on 16/8/2005 at 10:07

Regarding the "franchise" situation. In Medieval times "francises" did exist, but they were called "guilds". No one could do business unless they were members of a guild.

Not only the merchants, leatherworkers, jewelers and others, but as you note in THIEVES GUILD, the beggars and other low caste public servants were only able to survive by permission of the various guilds.

Otherwise you were vagrant unemployables and physically abused by the "guild" members, if not killed or maimed.

str8g8 on 16/8/2005 at 11:24

I think sub-districts and districts are a useful way of looking at the map, as I've said before. When you look at the current layout, some districts are clearly smaller and could easily be considered "part of" the larger ones. For example, New Market could easily be thought of as part of New Quarter, likewise, Stone Market part of Old Quarter. As proof of this concept at least, the dayport map from Life of the Party labels North Dayport and South Dayport.

I think I suggested differentiating between thse large Quarters, and the small Districts.

A guild\franchise of Crippled Burrick pubs is a variation on the explanation that there are at least 2 Crippled Burricks in The City, for whatever reason. Personally I think this feels a bit of a cop-out. I prefer that there is only 1 Crippled Burrick, and either we move the Ambush map to be nearer the Docks (as I laid out in the rough hack, and which requires some re-working) OR we assume Gilver is perpared to make a 20 minute walk to visit his favourite pub (which requires no re-working at all). Lets remember The City is not LA - people are not afraid to walk - it is the main mode of transport. Also, how well off is Gilver? couldn't he just get a carriage? (as someone else proposed).

cheers
str8g8

mol on 16/8/2005 at 13:59

I'd say that the better option is simply to assume that Gilver is willing to walk a bit to his favorite pub, instead of rearranging the map.

It also sounds logical and plausible that certain districts might be parts of larger ones, as in your example. New Market / New Quarter, Stone Market / Old Quarter seems quite logical to me.

@Solabusca, in Thief Gold briefing B07.AVI Garrett mentions that the part of the City where the abandoned Hammerite Cathedral is located, is walled off and no one's allowed to go in. He also says that maps of the area are easy to find but, like his map, most of them are over 50 years old.