Mapping out The City.

jtr7 on 11/8/2005 at 21:23

Might Gilver catch a buggy ride? I know... speculation. The briefing for Lord Bafford's Manor shows a small, horse-drawn coach. Is it too much of a stretch to allow for horses and coaches as transportation other than walking? My OPINION is that the cutscenes and briefings show the world the way the developers would have liked to build The City, but were limited by technology and time. We don't see how all of those shipping crates are moved, or any equipment for doing it, but there would have to be a way.
We don't see bears, but we know there are Bear Pits.
We know birds, fish, deer, frumious bandersnatches, etc. exist.
And we see horses and a carriage in a briefing.

Is it asking too much to ASSUME Gilver rode to the Crippled Burrick and, at least, intended to come back? He could travel, what, three or four times his walking speed? :erg: :)

theBlackman on 11/8/2005 at 22:05

As a well-to-do merchant he probably would, although taking that much time away from business more than now and then does not seem in his character as it comes through in his notes.

But, that is my opinion only.

242 on 11/8/2005 at 23:25

And pay attention to the time. It's too late to travel long distances just for a drink.

Anyway, option that Crippled Burrick pub is near Wayside Docks (most probably in adjacent quarter) is the one that requires fewer presumtions, at least when we consider the scroll only. I mean other in-game facts may interfere with such option, though I can't think of any serious objection against this option based on ingame facts.

str8g8 on 12/8/2005 at 08:53

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map.png) last placement map

moving the Crippled Burrick next to Wayside means moving the whole of the Ambush map (obviously). There is a space beneath the T3 South Quarter map (maybe have to move Rutherford Estate, Fendon, Blue Heron.

There are other consequences to this, though they aren't as bad as I thought.

1. The "To Shalebridge" note on Ambush is moved even further away from Shalebridge (though we have Shalebridge Rd which can continue in the same manner and connect them).

2. Garrett's T2/T1 apartment moves further away from the "Home Turf" note on the Assassin map. Home Turf could just mean South Quarter in general however. Or possibly Assassin could move a bit futher south, or occupy a greater area.

Have I missed anything? I stress that this is a big change, and will involve a lot of rework, and delay the completion of the map, so it shouldn't be taken lightly.

cheers
str8g8

242 on 12/8/2005 at 11:09

str8g8, I've looked at your map and I think the quarters are placed basically precize. The only objection I have is that NewMarket should probably be adjacent to the River, becuase of the known converstion of servants in Bafford's Manor.

As for the Crippled Burrick, I think as long as it's in South Quarter, it doesn't matter much if it's a bit closer or further from Rampones. Basic thing is that Garrett's apartment is in South Quarter, and therefore the Crippled Burrick is in SQ, and SQ is adjacent to Wayside Docks. Your map displays that :thumb:

PS: I remember as I and Grundbergriff (sp?) argued about quarter in which was Garrett's apartment in T2. Grundbegriff insisted that Garrett changed his apartment in T2, and moved to some other quarter, so the quarter of Ambush/Courier wasn't SQ. But I still belive Garrett's apartment was the same in T2. Firstly, because there were no in-game facts that Garrett moved to another apartment, thusly the option requires less presumptions. Secondly, because argumentation of Grundbegriff that architecture of Ambush/Courier quarter differed from architecture of Assassins map in T1, and therefore the apartments had to be in different parts of the City, seems very weak to me. We didn't see Garrett's apartment in T1, so the red/purple gate in the end of Assassins map could very well lead to the Ambush/Courier map. Exactly like it is on your map, great job! The logic inference is that Ambush/Courier map is located in SQ. Well, I hope you understood my blabbering ;)

str8g8 on 12/8/2005 at 11:27

242: This is a slightly out-of-date map, but it was the last I posted that showed all locations (Crippled Burrick, Rampones etc). If you are happy with the proximity of these two, then that's cool. I was actually considering moving the Ambush map to be further south, ie

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/ambush_map_move.png) rough hack

but there are consequences (see my last post). What do others think of this new arrangement?

About Garrett's home, myself and Mugla came to exactly the same conclusion earlier in this thread. I think they were the same in both T1 and T2. So the ambush map is part of South Quarter. In T3 he has moved (but not far!).

cheers
str8g8

MorbusG on 12/8/2005 at 20:38

Quote Posted by str8g8

What do others think of this new arrangement?

Well, not about the new arrangement, but I really like you to know that I love the location of Shoalsgate in your -complete -map. :)
(The River going E-W below it!)

But, I have to question the decision of different homes in t1&t2 and t3?

Also I'd like to question about the speak of ambush/assassins/many other maps, that they would be in southquarter? It doesn't read so in those maps, why the assumptions?
(Sorry again for bad english)

Mugla on 12/8/2005 at 21:11

sysqc: The decisions on having all the maps in SQ and the tenement movement came from a lenghty chain of deductions, so I hope I get it covered here now:

Firstly, in Ambush! we have arrows pointing out Shalebridge. Following them, we tied the two locations together, even though their exact location on the big map or the distance were open for speculation.
Next, the Bafford conversation tied Shalebridge and Newmarket into a tandem, which again, didn't have a too specific spot on the map, but a pretty specific distance (eg. across the River).
Thirdly, home turf was specified in the next pieces: Ramirez's papers, "Garrett, a South Quarter independent, sent Quince and Jacow to 'shorten' him", Assassins! -south end, Ambush! -home.
So, when South Quarter was tied to the T3 map, it was easy to place the pieces as you see; Shalebridge road was a "big" road, so one of the maps roads were chosen. One that lead to Shalebridge, over a bridge, next to the River, which was bent specifically so that Newmarket could be across it.

To put it simply, we haven't searched the other possibilities for the locations, as this one fit so perfectly. Thus far...

I'll return to the subject after a good sleep; just arrived home, so late. :bored:

MorbusG on 12/8/2005 at 21:49

Quote Posted by Mugla

sysqc: The decisions on having all the maps in SQ and the tenement movement came from a lenghty chain of deductions, so I hope I get it covered here now:

I'm sorry, fellow Finn :) , but those didn't answer my questions. Also, I was aware of all the aspects you gave.
These things tend to work out best with a pint full of lager.. :joke:

Mugla on 13/8/2005 at 08:25

Okay, I'll re-try. Was too tired to be too comprehensible. :p

After the lengthy deductions, which you already knew, this one option of possibly many came first into our minds. We never bothered to search any other ways, and speaking seriously, that was a mistake, as there could had been a better way to do this all. But, we were quite eager to go on, as with this layout things did coincide and answer our needs well enough for the time's being.
So... If you are already interested in this particular piece, please go on and tell us if you manage to find alternative ways. Who knows, perhaps there is a perfect setting after all...

And I'll take your offer on that pint, thank you. :cheeky:

Back to the rest I promised:
str8g8: On that rough hack of yours... There was this other alternative we experimented with with sysqc, the ones where the scale was much smaller, closer to what the T3 evidence pointed at. There the pieces would get so big, that Crippled Burrick would be almost next to Docks (T3), and the distances would be much more 'manageable for a small walk'. Just to cover the option, not suggesting anything yet, though.

I think I might give the streets a try today, and see what happens. I'll be back with the results shortly.

EDIT: Here's a demo.
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/avenues.jpg" alt="Image hosted by Photobucket.com">

One option that occured to me, was to use a similiar setting like in Manhattan, where the avenues and streets go vertical/horizontal through the island like a grid. So the place we start counting from is the River, from where the avenues expand in a 'chronological' order westwards.

In the map, the red road is a coastal road that ties the two dead-ends from the T3 map with T3 Docks, and goes over Rampone's. The pink roads represent the avenues, descending from South Quarter and Old Quarter.
I have to agree, there doesn't seem to be enough space for 13 avenues, and the road named after the Rutherfords would be cut shorter (or it would become a lesser street somewhere else), so I ask what do you people think of this idea?

EDIT'S EDIT: Oh, if we would start counting the avenues from an even more eastern location, say one old enough to have something to do with the formation of the roads; the Baron's Castle. Then Baron's way could continue somewhere on the west side too (say, the red one I drew. Wouldn't collide with Shalebridge Road), and the avenues could match better for the 13th. Except for Grandmauden Road in Dayport, but...