Mapping out The City.

str8g8 on 29/7/2005 at 12:18

Doc_Brown: thanks for the (as always) considered reply. It's good to know that you are generally OK with how things are progressing. Just a couple of things I want to pick up on from your post ...

The Baron's Castle is based on evidence (though rather a slender piece of evidence); namely Baron's Way which cuts through Dayport.

Also, I think you've got your wires crossed about the servants conversation in Bafford's. Here it is in full:

SV2C0201 - I swear, I've never seen the river this low!
SV1C0202 - Drought twelve years back? That was almost as bad as this.
SV2C0203 - You can nearly walk across, up at Shalebridge!
SV1C0204 - Hmmm! Wouldn't New Market love that!

The final comment is indeed intended sarcastically. The only interpretation that fits is:
a) Shalebridge is across the river from New Market
b) Shalebridge is a poor, run-down area
c) New Market are snooty and up-market (or consider themselves so)

As a side note, after reading it again, I notice it says "up at Shalebridge", not simply "at Shalebrige" or "down at Shalebridge" ... To me this implies Shalebridge is up-river, in-land (where we have it, basically) and not at the first bridge, so we could add:

d) Shalebridge is up-river or north of Baffords

cheers
str8g8

Mugla on 29/7/2005 at 15:33

sysqc: You overlooked one piece in the Assassins! map: 'Hometurf' is south of the fountain in this map.

Doc: On the historical narrative: The current terrain around that area would be a hill, which around the River curves, and then the dale of Auldale on the otherside. This could mean that Auldale might had been a half-occupied area, with the road to Baron's home going through it onto the hills (which thus might have an overlook of key defending-spots, like a valley to the NE of the City going between the two mountains).

242: I agree on not going any steps beyond canon-material, but I think all the areas mentioned have to be recorded into the map somehow. We could do it with an extra layer, which indicates speculations though; like when clicking a button labeled 'Speculations', all areas, borders and buildings that we placed with next to no evidence will be highlighted with orange, and you can then scroll the mouse over each spot to get an explanation why is it there, and perhaps a few arrows to other alternatives and their con/pro's.
We'll see.

Sorry for doing these quick drop-ins, as my time is somewhat limited nowadays. Luck with the effort everyone. :D

Snakeskin on 29/7/2005 at 16:53

Hey everyone!
As you may have noticed, i am workng on a Thief RPG in a nearby thread. I was planning on including your work with the map as how the city will look. What i am wondering is:

Does anyone here want to help me with descriptions of the different quarters, wealth, what important sites there are, and so on. The descriptions are preferably based on facts, but after that the info can be entirely fictional, the most important thing is that a beliavable description can be given for each area and making them interesting places to carry on adventures throughout the city. Since you guys have a lot more experience, and probable have these descriptions in your minds already, i would really appreciate the help :thumb:

To Str8g8: Do you want to make a "fictional" version of your map, filling out the emptier sections a little more, and perhaps adding locations for places we know exist in The City? Basically The City like you would want it to be, based on the progress you guys have made here?

EDIT: Descriptions and stories, which set the mood for the city is also welcome!

EDIT2: PM me and i will mail you my progress with the RPG so far

str8g8 on 30/7/2005 at 10:32

Snakeskin, we will fill in the blanks, so to speak, we are just now at the point where all the canon material has been covered (I think). The project is to create a full working map for the community, principally for FM designers seeking to place their work within the overall context of the City, but also for anyone who is interested (like you).

I think we have a pretty good idea of the character of each district now (some more so than others). I suggest Doc_Brown might be the man for the job (I'm kinda busy with the map and the editor right now). Here's my thoughts on the subject:

Old Quarter, South Quarter, Docks and Auldale are described pretty well in T3 briefings for the city sections - use those as your starting point.

Shalebridge: I think this is one of the poorest districts in the City, poorer even than the The Docks. I see it as a kind of inner city slum, big tenements with whole families in a single room, maybe factories and sweatshops, workhouses, that kind of thing. Also a den of iniquity, with prostitutes, bear-pits, gambling dens, organised crime - think London's East End. It is also the site an original crossing point, and the Shale Bridge that connects it with Old Quarter.

Dayport: There will be some shipping activity, but not on the scale of Wayside Docks, also less smuggling, and so on. I got the impression from LotP that Dayport is kind of the administrative centre of the City - it is near the Baron's Castle, there are lots of noble castles and so on. This is in contrast to Auldale which is "wall to wall nobility" as Garrett has said, but is more residential.

Eastport: Dominated by The Baron's castle I think Eastport is a new district, but very prestigious (which is why the Mecanists built there seminary there). If you are "nouveau riche" as opposed to old money, this is where you would choose to build your estate.

Shoalsgate: A border district separating upmarket Auldale from the slums of Shalebridge.

North Quarter: A sprawling newer district, lots of new building going on. Lots of commerce and industry (ie First City Bank and Trust). The people who run the factories in Shalebridge might build their manor houses here.

New Market: Another newer district. Snobbish middle-class residents who see themselves as superior to their neighbours in Old Quarter and South Quarter. Full of merchants and ambitious social climbers.In contrast to Stonemarkets teeming blackmarket activity, New Market's commercial operations is strictly legit and above-baord.

Hightowne: A small area of fading grandeur, once occupied by the nobility. Occupying an area of higher ground overlooking the rest of the city.

Downtowne: A very old area of closely-knit streets, perhaps not as important as it once was, but still occupying an important point at the crossroads of many other districts. Probably it is a mixture of rich and poor.

That's my general impressions anyway.

cheers
str8g8

Snakeskin on 30/7/2005 at 13:05

Thanks a lot :) , when can one expect the finished version of the map to be out?

MorbusG on 30/7/2005 at 13:21

Quote Posted by Mugla

sysqc: You overlooked one piece in the Assassins! map: 'Hometurf' is south of the fountain in this map.

Not to sound rude, but:
Yes,
and..?
Or am I not seeing something?

Mugla on 30/7/2005 at 14:26

My initial point was, that hometurf is labeled to be south of the Assassins! map, not the area where the well is; Otherwise the whole area would be labeled hometurf, not just arrows indicating such area to the south. With your interpretation the area opposite to the home would be hometurf. Closest location is usually primarily labeled.

Of course, you could be indicating the direction where the hometurf extends? Towards South Quarter where Garrett supposedly is working according to Ramirez?
But it would be also of note that now Garrett is living just nextdoors to Ramirez. Also, G.'s tenement would be between Newmarket and Hightowne, but who says these couldn't be sub/over-districts of South Quarter?
But on the otherhand, if you're suggesting already that the graveyards in T3 Fort Ironweed and Ambush! are overlapping, according to the Glyph-cutscene the Ambush! map would have to be aligned so that Crippled Burrick is next to the sea, much where Bloody Ears Tavern is currently.

Well, I was never against having a more cramped centrum, but having the above explained so that it satisfies everyone might get tricky. Ideas anyone?

str8g8 on 31/7/2005 at 09:30

Quote:

when can one expect the finished version of the map to be out?

the next few months, hopefully :D

Doc_Brown on 8/8/2005 at 05:23

Second page?! Tsk, tsk.

Quote Posted by 242

My proposition is to include objects whose locations are confiremed by ingame facts, and do not speculate about objects whose locations just cannot be determined, like Baron's residence. The map will be more canonical in that case.

I agree, but our sentiments are rather meaningless in the face of such little concrete evidence. Probably the only thing we know, for sure, is what the TDS map shows us. Everything else, regardless of how well thought out, regardless of the fact that it might work nowhere else, retains some element of guesswork. If some guesswork is allowed, it then turns into a debate about how much can be forgiven, and that's yet another massive debate to get into.

Quote Posted by 242

As of the mages towers, of course they are beyound the City. The map in the Keeper's Grotto shows direction to the talisman.

My point was only that it was yet to be included on our map.

Quote Posted by str8g8

The Baron's Castle is based on evidence (though rather a slender piece of evidence); namely Baron's Way which cuts through Dayport.

Ah! I stand corrected. Well met.

Quote Posted by str8g8

Also, I think you've got your wires crossed about the servants conversation in Bafford's.

Quite right, I did bungle the delivery. However, I still think the notion has merit. All other evidence points towards Shalebridge being an upscale, almost resort-like section of town. If Newmarket were poor and unkempt, who's to blame its residents for wanting to get into that exclusive community?

Quote Posted by Mugla

Doc: On the historical narrative: The current terrain around that area would be a hill, which around the River curves, and then the dale of Auldale on the otherside. This could mean that Auldale might had been a half-occupied area, with the road to Baron's home going through it onto the hills (which thus might have an overlook of key defending-spots, like a valley to the NE of the City going between the two mountains).

Most interesting. We must consider the possible implications of incorporating a speculative chronological development feature into the project.

Quote Posted by str8g8

I suggest Doc_Brown might be the man for the job

More than happy to. However, might I suggest we wait until we're certain on the layout? As the Shalebridge discussion illustrates, much can yet change.

Going for the Gold
Well, I've gone through the texts that were so thoughtfully provided, as well as referenced Garrett's maps for the added levels, and so far as I can tell there's nothing of import therein when it comes to placements on the map. Unless the dialogue or cinemas give any clues, we're on our own.

Having said that, I wanted to get into a discussion about the criminal powers in The City, and how we can work out an acceptable placement of their positions. While it's true that, technically, they could be anywhere, I think we need to make some placements based on what information we have. At least there's something there to go on, you know?

Now we know that Raputo and Webster are the two big guns, really, controlling New Quarter/New Market/North Quarter/Shalebridge and Wayside/Dayport/Eastport respectively. The Downwinders, it seems, would not be located on either of their turfs, so what I'd offer as one suggestion is perhaps placing the Overlord's Fancy in the North section of Old Quarter, much as the old placement of Shoalsgate Station was.

As for the other gambling dens, I think we should determine who they belong to, and place them according to their territories. I haven't taken a look yet myself, but I seem to recall there might be some ledgers that may indicate just that...

Re: Placement Map
Just a quick note to say that I've gone over the rest of them, and they seem, for the most part, satisfactory. I'll hold off on any further pursuit until the next iteration of the placement map.

str8g8 on 8/8/2005 at 12:10

Doc_Brown: go ahead and make some suggestions for placement, I wasn't planning on any updates to this.

Shalebridge

Quote:

All other evidence points towards Shalebridge being an upscale, almost resort-like section of town

there is some (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74510&highlight=shalebridge) discussion here; the general consensus seems to be Shalebridge is a bit run-down.

The only evidence counter to this is Bandy Rofthoffer's holiday.

Quote:

"Bandly Rofthoffer -- Declined (on holiday in Shalebridge)" (Attendance-list, LotP, T2)

There are non-literal interpretations of this however (off the top of my head):
a) Bandy Rofthoffer has been bankrupt and "on holiday in Shalebridge" is euphemistic slang for being ruined (and having to go and live in a slum).
b) Bandy Rofthoffer is a rake/sex tourist and is slumming it in the brothels and gambling dens etc.
c) It is a joke, ie a very poor, made up excuse "I can't come to your party because I'm going on holiday to ... err ... Milton Keynes!"
d) It is a slight from Bandy Rofthoffer, ie it is so obviously a lie, and so barely concealed as to be insulting to Karras.

Set against this, Garrett says "there is no better place" than Shalebridge to lie low, ie it is a hive of criminal activity where he can go undetected, he has contacts there etc.

Following from this:

Quote:

"Ship To: Manny Jabrielle, 499 Taft Avenue, Shalebridge" (Plates to crates, S&R, T2)

Garrett as a fence in Shalebridge, which implies this general lawlessness.

cheers
str8g8