Mapping out The City.

Mugla on 23/7/2005 at 08:36

Ha! On vacation! :D

...For a day. :sweat:

Well, let's see.
str8g8: The seagulls and the sea-shore were on the scene where Garrett's apartment was displayed. And I thought you said such were artistical evidence, so that's why I pointed out it might not be something you need so much. No sarcasm here.
This evidence would suggest a closer vicinity to the sea, like sysqc tried there. Con is, the glyph-scene with the street-sizes would then suggest all the Thief-missions would be in a small centrum area (Downtowne?). Pro is, this never bothered me atleast. We would have a more indetail area, and a completely uncharted surrounding, or a patchwork like the current version.

z-vap: Great job with the letters. And it is useful, if only to close the deal once and for all (it's a nightmare to work with the uncertainty you might find something that will change everything). Atleast we see a few names who might have manors, like Brosius etc. Wasn't there a Vallerius in S&R? And what about the Lesser Hrabota delivery? Wasn't that mentioned there too?

sysqc: Thanks for going through that alternative btw. We never thought of it, and it is better to "chart the unusable paths" too, if it pans out to be a dead-end. People who will question our solution want hard evidence 'why not', so you're not doing a complete waste even if you don't succeed.
If you have the time and the interest, don't stop yet. Try out a few alternatives, try to squeeze the evidence in differently and tell us what you see. It would be a great shame, if there would be a better way to represent this all after we've already finished.
Have you seen the first map by me btw? I think it's on page 11 or a page back/forth. It looked pretty similiar, if a touch more crude.

IronsteffL: The timeline and the events can't be really categorized under this thread, but I don't see why we couldn't link any of the stuff written on those issues into the site and integrate them into a single complete explanation. We might even have something to contribute to such compendi, but all in due time, let's finish this first.
On the note of the ruler of the City; the Baron is the 'king', and a City Council is mentioned too.
On the accord of filling in gaps, I personally am content in listing out the facts, and let fan-content -makers do the improvisation. Currently we are "mapping out the canon". :)

bobarctor on 23/7/2005 at 09:45

Wow that map of Paris is amazing! Can you do a map, say for T1 in that style, a medieval olde one? Hand drawn and all. That would be cool.

Solabusca on 23/7/2005 at 22:49

I've seen a city-map done for Corvis, City of Ghosts in this style - I'll see if I can track down a link in the depths of (http://www.privateerpress.com) Privateer Press' archives.

But allow me to second that if our diligent and intrepid mappers get around to doing it, using this kind of palette for their final product (isn't something similar available in CC2?) would be something incredible to see.

Oh, and for anyone interested in mapping of this sorta city, check out (http://www.seekingsolis.co.uk/) Solis, the City of Shadows - some very nice things to take advantage of there.

.j.

Episkopos Stephanus on 23/7/2005 at 23:21

Triggered by str8g8's mention of Istanbul, I looked up Constantinople on Wikipedia and found this interesting bit of information:

Quote:

As the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire (now commonly known as the Byzantine Empire, an Enlightenment era namesake), the Greeks called Constantinople simply i Poli ("the City"), while throughout Europe it was known as the "Queen of Cities", the richest and largest city both culturally and economically.

Solabusca on 24/7/2005 at 01:11

You came across that entry too, Episkopos?

Yes, it did spawn more than a few connections in my mind as well... and luckily enough, I have a few books on Constantinople within easy reach.

.j.

MorbusG on 24/7/2005 at 22:36

Quote Posted by Mugla

Try out a few alternatives, try to squeeze the evidence in differently and tell us what you see.

I see that (again, taking into account the blocksize from ending scene) the water fountain could be the same in t3 as in assassins, along with the graveyard being same in t3 as in ambush. It took some serious "squeezing" though.
Have a (http://whitecortex.net/~mikko/mikko_thief3map.png) looksie.
The home is in same place as in all games, and right next to the water fountain as in t3.
Also, the river in keepers map fits with the canal in ambush map.

Just playing around with these maps...

Quote Posted by Mugla

Have you seen the first map by me btw?

I have all the maps in this thread saved on my computer. :)

EDIT: forgot to mention that the blocksize from assassins/keeper is off in that. Because I tried to get old quarter in the top right part of them.

str8g8 on 25/7/2005 at 11:59

hmm, is there a water fountain in assassins? That's interesting.

We played around with other parallels in T3 - for instance the marketplace in Ambush being Stonemarket. The problem is that these areas have a very different street layout, look very different between T1\2 and T3, and so it's easier to maintain continuity if we accept they are different areas, ie there must be plenty of graveyards and fountains and marketplaces in the city.

Also, doesn't this rather sqeeze out the Shalebridge district where you had it before? If you place T3 OQ map to line up with the Graveyard, you would get Shalebridge district and Shalebridge Cradle at the second bridge ... which is interesting (but not in line with the cutscene which shows it at the first).

I'm still interested to see where you go with this!

cheers
str8g8

Doc_Brown on 29/7/2005 at 06:59

In a later post I shall return to such lengthier pursuits as analyzing the Thief Gold intel (though, don't we still require the briefings and conversations?) and the (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map.png) current placement map, but for now there were a few points I wanted to touch on...

Current Events
Since you asked for my thoughts on the (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/city_map_complete_new03.png) latest version of your map, str8g8, I thought it only fair to comply (even if, oh, two weeks late). While we're admittedly getting further and further away from hard facts and into conjecture, I'd say at this stage that's unavoidable. Besides, the decisions we're making are still based, in part, on the evidence at hand, so it's not as though we're making this stuff up off the tops of our heads.

I like a lot of what this layout conveys. The oldest part of town, the center of The City, is crammed with many different districts, whereas the newer quarters on the outskirts are much larger. It feels right, from the perspective of urban evolution. Also note the river's notable dividing presence, with the poorer districts in the older part of town, and the newer districts across the shore (I'll speak a bit more on this in a moment).

To return to urban evolution for a moment, the historical narrative I seem to be picking up is that the first citizens came ashore on the left bank and settled inland, likely in a clearing or near a small offshoot of the main river. Considering the size of the current city, another small settlement likely was established at the landing point, and I wouldn't think it a stretch for a third to appear at the rightmost riverbend as well. Over time, these three simply grew together (perhaps, even, focally in the Downtowne area), forming the initial city from which the current City was eventually borne.

The Man Who Would Be Baron
The inclusion of the Baron's personal residence in Eastport doesn't, I believe, stem from any piece of evidence, but I consider it a wise choice nonetheless. We know so little about the area, so placing such a notable landmark there gives it some sorely needed character while also staying true to the rich/poor divide. The notion of it being situated on a cliff is simply further icing on the cake. 'twould be interesting to see some FMs set in that locale, or Eastport itself, which now would seem to be the Baron's personal port.

Shoals, Gates, and Everything In-Between
While the introduction of a totally new district is, from a purist's standpoint, cause for alarm, it's something I'm still willing to let slide. For one, we do have one small shred of evidence in its favor (something, say, East Quarter would not possess). For another, I appreciate the way it breaks up the Eastern districts, which, I think we can agree, were too large originally. And thirdly, I too appreciate the karmic balance of five-by-five.

Speaking of Shalebridge
Returning to the rich/poor debate, it occurs to me that we may have possibly misinterpretted a piece of data. You'll all recall the comment about the low river? Our assumption up to this point has been that Shalebridge would love to cross over to Newmarket. But perhaps, just perhaps, it was intended in the reverse. What if the comment, "Wouldn't Shalebridge love that," was intended sarcastically, that the hoity-toity residents of Shalebridge would resent it if the Newmarket folk could simply stroll over. It certainly would keep in line with the rich/poor divide I've mentioned.

Okay, I Lied
There is one bit of Thief Gold info I do want to touch on right now. You'll note how, on the placement map, the Bonehoard is currently located outside the City limits to the East (I may yet debate that point, though). Judging from the recently posted Thief Gold Keeper Map, and commentary from the mages themselves, it would appear that the Mage Towers are precisely mirroring that placement. The arror indicating the location of the Earth Talisman could easily be construed as direction instead of specific, which would place their towers just outside of the City limits to the West.

I Shall Call It... Mini-Map
sysqc, while I ultimately think it will lead to a dead end (aren't I the helpful one), I too wish to encourage you to continue to work on your take on the City map. I'll badger you with questions, much as I already do to these guys, so be prepared to defend or revise your work. It'll be interesting to see how the concept evolves, and if nothing else may provide insights for our own pursuits that we've overlooked.

potterr's plan
I just wanted to say what a cool idea you've got going there, and to encourage you to continue to work with us on its final realization. The implications of its use boggle the mind, and I for one don't want to pass up on such an opportunity. Bloody brilliant, my good man.

242 on 29/7/2005 at 10:00

My proposition is to include objects whose locations are confiremed by ingame facts, and do not speculate about objects whose locations just cannot be determined, like Baron's residence. The map will be more canonical in that case.

As of the mages towers, of course they are beyound the City. The map in the Keeper's Grotto shows direction to the talisman.

MorbusG on 29/7/2005 at 10:08

Quote Posted by str8g8

hmm, is there a water fountain in assassins? That's interesting.

Well, could be or could not. It is clearly marked on the assassins map though (I've left intentionally the assassins map a little bit to the left of the water fountain I've marked in blue so it can be seen more clearly)

Quote Posted by str8g8

The problem is that these areas have a very different street layout, look very different between T1\2 and T3

Not that many in same areas, and even if were, not wise to compare since that would be the least concern to level designers, right? As a sidenote relating to this, T3 maps are *small*.

Quote Posted by str8g8

ie there must be plenty of graveyards and fountains and marketplaces in the city.

Ofcourse! I was focusing on a relatively small area (remember the blocksize!), so in that small area, it would not make sense for more than 1 graveyard for example.

Quote Posted by str8g8

Also, doesn't this rather sqeeze out the Shalebridge district where you had it before?

I ditched that idea, see earlier posts (well.. to be honest, I still like to play with that idea.. trying to stretch it to the north. We'll see).