Mapping out The City.

str8g8 on 3/2/2005 at 13:39

Quote:

"I've never seen the river so low. You can almost walk across at Shalebridge." "Wouldn't New Market love that."
(Oh, I noticed that bit just now: ...walk across at Shalebridge...)

I've never thought of that interpretation either; my reasoning was that the river in question was the smaller of the two. In either case the market place that we see in the AMBUSH map could be either Newmarket or Stone Market ... if it's the former, then it means that Garrett has lived in South Quarter throughout all 3 games, and didn't have to move to New Quarter or wherever, as some have argued in the past! On the other hand, if it is Stone Market, then Shalebridge Street could run easily from the Cradle, through Stonemarket, to Shalebridge ... hmmm

cheers
str8g8

Mugla on 3/2/2005 at 17:09

Exactly. Now let me demo a bit what happens next on that line of thought:
So my approach was to use the T3 map and add all the ingame missions to it. First I added Auldale, which didn't cause any problems, except that a few streets were opened up into the mission (which for me is okay).
Next I added T3-OQ in: there's a bit of a problem, as the map placed Fort IW above Cradle, when ingame it is the opposite; Lucky us, each and every other ingame map of the City in T3 has a compass needle... Except Old Quarter.
Now, if we tilt it only... say... '45' degrees, we have a nice match with the streets. ;) Also the Keeper Compound gets it's location here.
I didn't add Stonemarket just yet, as it was fudgeable by alot; instead, I added the Ambush! map into it's slot: there were two possibilities here; either have Helena Way be one of the major roads (as suggested before), or make the roads so that T3 South Quarter map lines with Stonemarket's road better: I decided to against logic take the former one, even though it wont make much difference with the problem I have (you'll see if you try it out). Also Shalebridge Road goes nicely on the west bank of the River.
Now came Stonemarket, which I had to raise slightly above the road that lines Stonemarket from the north; this also dropped St. Edgars exactly atop it's logo, so I'm pleased.

Then comes the problem. It's personal, yes, but I think you might agree with it.
Here, have a look what it looks like thus far(a bit messy if it is. All the streets match perfectly, if you take your time; only Fort Iw needed to jump onto the other side of the road.) :
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/map.jpg)

I added the final stroke; Garrett's house and the Crippled Burrick.

Do you see? :p
How would Garrett reply, do you think?
-"I never saw them there! No one did!"
-"I wasn't ready to move away that far away from them!"

...Atleast now we know why Keepers were so aware of Garrett's movements. :laff:

str8g8 on 4/2/2005 at 13:05

Good stuff!

Quote:

So my approach was to use the T3 map and add all the ingame missions to it. First I added Auldale, which didn't cause any problems, except that a few streets were opened up into the mission (which for me is okay).

This was my original approach (only I tried to take the keeper/grotto map and make the rivers line up) and I think it is the best way to work, btw don't worry about opening up streets - that's just a limitation of level design.

Rotating the OQ map might not go down too well around here ;) - though I can see it makes things neater.

But as an alternative, have you thought about the scale? It seems to me that the your in-game maps a too big, and the T3 maps in particular are too big and we have also run out of room for the walled section and so on. Likewise the Ambush map doesn't have to stretch all the way to the river (does it?) In fact, if we would like the market place in Ambush to be NewMarket (this would be better because Stone Market has been 'done' in T3) then it should be scaled down and moved slightly to the left. Shalebridge St could be the big diagonal road that stretches all the way from the Cradle all the way up through New Market and on up to Shalebridge! The the walled section could be placed to the right of the Ambush map, lining up Auldale Road with the main road leading to the middle bridge (Auldale Bridge?)

Other things - not sure why you have put the The Crippled Burrick in a slightly different position from where it is placed on the Ambush map, and likewise, isn't G's tenement is the building at the marked HOME on the Ambush map, rather than the area you have highlighted?

And the only thing contrary to Doc's core map is Stonemarket being too far north - was there any specific reason why Stonemarket cannot be north west of New Market?

cheers
str8g8

Mugla on 4/2/2005 at 13:46

Um, it was to demonstrate exactly those problems. Remember what I wrote?

Quote:

Exactly. Now let me demo a bit what happens next on that line of thought:

And it seems you stumbled exactly on the same solution what I came to :D :

Quote:

Shalebridge St could be the big diagonal road that stretches all the way from the Cradle all the way up through New Market and on up to Shalebridge!
The the walled section could be placed to the right of the Ambush map, lining up Auldale Road with the main road leading to the middle bridge (Auldale Bridge?)

With this in mind: If you look at my original map, only T3-Old Quarter is ín the wrong place.
(Funny thing, I called the middle one Auldale bridge too. And the lowest one would be Old bridge, a memento to the conversations in 2001, if you scroll back the pages. ;) )

Quote:

And the only thing contrary to Doc's core map is Stonemarket being too far north - was there any specific reason why Stonemarket cannot be north west of New Market?

Really? :weird: *Checks Doc's map* No. Newmarket is NW from Stonemarket. My map didn't involve New Market yet, just placed Ambush!'s market as part of Stonemarket (as you can see, the graveyard goes just below St. Edgars to boot. Poor thing we cant use that map). Perhaps you miswrote?

Oh, it seems you missed my little observation there:
Garrett's apartment in that map is right across the street to the Keeper Library; Likewise, the Crippled Burrick is next to the Keeper Compound!
Why the Keepers were so aware of Garrett's movements makes suddenly sence: all they had to do is look out the window. :laff:

str8g8 on 4/2/2005 at 15:59

Are you saying the second map you posted was an earlier draft? So the first map you posted is the most up-to-date as far as your reasoning goes?

Quote:

Newmarket is NW from Stonemarket

Yes, I mis-typed, sorry! What I mean to say was can Stonemarket be further north than New Market? But it seems you have already addressed this...

Anyway, I will go through this properly at the weekend and post on Monday :)

cheers
str8g8

Mshade on 4/2/2005 at 23:39

Can someone post the url of the map plz?;)

theBlackman on 5/2/2005 at 02:22

If you read the thread from day one, you will see a lot of links to versions of the map.

I know there are a few pages, but in threads like this, not reading from the top is really missing the action, and, in this case links that show the progression.

Some 5 or 6 posts above yours IS A LINK TO A MAP.

I won't say lazy... but...

Mugla on 5/2/2005 at 10:46

Source: Everything either copy-pasted straight from (http://thief.webz.cz/) or this thread, or based on T3 cutscenes/briefings.
If some of the evidence seems irrelevant or far fetched, they refer to some other evidence.
Missing evidence would be mainly from Thief Gold, but there might be something else too, so keep a lookout for them; for example I didn't list all the small non-district related tidbits, which I started adding only after I remembered you'd have use for them too later on.
If anyone has something to add or correct, add the next number/corrected number and post it with the source. Don't worry about it not getting under the correct title anymore (maps, notes etc.).
Anything discussing locations or concerning any information that is related to such information is considered evidence.

EVIDENCE
Maps
Assassins: ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T1/html/maps/Miss5-001.jpg) )
Sealed Section: ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T1/html/maps/Miss7-001.jpg) )
Keeper map: ( (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/TG_keeper_map.jpg) )
Ambush!: ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T2/html/maps/miss5-002.jpg) )
Dayport(1): ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T2/html/maps/miss11-002.jpg) )
Dayport(2): ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T2/html/maps/miss11-003.jpg) )
Dayport(3): ( (http://thief.webz.cz/T2/html/maps/miss11-004.jpg) )
Thief3 map: ( (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/TDStextmap1.jpg) )
Screenshots from T3 cutscenes (sorry, a re-post):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/T3mapartifacts.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3mapcradle.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3maparti_small3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3maparti_small.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3maparti_glyph.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3map_sq_neighood.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/t3map_glyphified.jpg)
Notations on above pics/maps
1. Sealed Section has Auldale St. inside it (Sealed Section map, T1)
2.1. Ambush! marketplace has Garrett's apartment to NW from said marketplace(Ambush!, T2)
2.2. Shalebridge St. on east side, vertical direction (Ambush!, T2)
2.3. Shalebridge to NE (Ambush!, T2)
2.4. Has Old Gate before Shalebridge (Ambush!, T2)
3. Garrett has 'hometurf' in/S from Newmarket; watch the wall-line (Assassins! map, T1)
4. The First Landing Site -artifact-slot isn't on the coast, but inland (Artemus_appears-cutscene, T3)
5. The locations of the artifacts have been clearly circled (Artemus_appears-cutscene, T3)
6. The Cradle's location has been verified (Artemus_appears-cutscene, T3)
7. The correct block-width/size of the neighbourhood can be seen, when the glyph lits the place (final cutscene, T3)
8. As the camera pans out, also the correct size of a house can be measured compared to the 'glyph' (final cutscene, T3)
Visit ingame
9. 'Hometurf' has the entrance to the Lost City (visit ingame Assassins!, T1)
10. Overlook Mansion is pretty much the west limit of the City-coast (Docks/OL Mansion, T3)
11. South Quarter first district (fountain plaque in SQ, T3)
12. Wayside Docks has first Landing Site (memorial near tavern, T3)
13. Old Quarter has Barricade-memorial (memorial within Fort Ironwood, T3)
14.1. North entrance to Lost City is close to Downtowne/hometurf, in the river-bottom (Lost City entrance/Assassins! map, T1)
14.2. South Entrance is underwater near the Docks somehwere (Kidnap entrance, T2)
Notes
15. "Garrett - South Quarter 'independent' thief. Denied cut three times. Sent Quince and Jacow out to shorten him." (Ramirez's papers, T1, also T3 ingame)
16. "...The rivers are so treacherous this time of year." Notice multiple rivers. (Ramirez's letter to deNavan, T1)
17. "Raputo, Warden of North Quarter, Shalebridge, Newmarket, New Quarter. Webster, Warden of Docks, Eastport, Dayport." (Ramirez's papers, T1)
18. "(Remember the thirty-day siege at Castle Morendrum, old friend? Ah, now those were the days!)" Note in Carlysle armory, LotP, T2)
19. "...Can you find any precedent on going into the Walled section of the Old Quarter?...Anyhow, no rush on this one; better to look into it on the quiet rather than rile the Hammers or let Raputo or Webster hear about it." (Ramirez's papers, T1)
20.1. "Ship From: Gilver Exporting Co, 1369 Winston Avenue Bay#7933, Wayside Dock District" (S&R address, T2)
20.2. "Ship To: Governor Horridge (Via special overseas route), 1094 Richmond Boulevard"
//or optionally
"Ship To: Manny Jabrielle, 499 Taft Avenue, Shalebridge" (Plates to crates, S&R, T2)
21. Captain Blouf, First City Bank and Trust Guard, 100 Gentry Boulevard, North Quarter" (Letter in bank, T2)
22. "Bandly Rofthoffer -- Declined (on holiday in Shalebridge)" (Attendance-list, LotP, T2)
Movies/objectives
23. "In the river-bank, on the east side..." (Lost City briefing, T1)
24. "The sealed entrance to the Lost City is supposed to be at the bottom of the river around here somewhere." Notice small r(LC objective, T1)
25. "...Eastport Mechanist seminary... (Eavesdrop briefing, T2)
26. "The entrance to LC is in the bottom of the river..." Notice small initial(Lost City objective, T1)
27. "The lack of planning evident in the closeness of buildings... strange twist of a street." (City quote, T3)
28. "...One of the more crowded residential areas in the center of town, near the river. Not a wall to wall nobility like Auldale." On SQ. Notice small initial on the river (SQ intro, T3)
29. "...from above, the rubble forms an arrow, and it points directly at the Keeper Library." "We've been using Orland's own secret tunnel: It connects Compound to his office in the Library..." On account of their location (Compound OQ, Library SM) (Splintergroup cutscene, T3)
30. "This is where I live, so I guess this is home..." (SQ intro, T3)
31. "This district's known for commerce and corruption..." (Stonemarket Intro, T3)
32. "The Docks... The poor part of town... full of cramped tenements and surly residents... Precious imports that are stored here until moved into one of the wealthier districts..."
33. "This is Auldale, one of the richest districts of the City." (Auldale intro, T3)
34. "...that was deserted some years ago, after some kind of catastrophe...Maps on the area are easy to find in attics and old trunks. But like all of them, the one I've got is over 50 years old..." (Haunted Cathedral briefing, T1)
35. Garrett has hideout/friend in Shalebridge(Ambush! objective, T2)
36. "A castle in SQ and a street named after them..." on account of Rutherfords (briefing to Opal, T3)
37. A waterway along the River, bridges high enough for small ships (briefing B16, T2, Endcutscene T1)
Conversations
38. "I've never seen the river so low. You can almost walk across at Shalebridge.""Wouldn't New Market love that." (Baffords servants, T1)
39. Bloody Ears Tavern, Docks (peasants outside G.s house, T3)
40. "...Streets all different, not like in Auldale or Stonemarket..." on SQ (servant-guard, Opal, T3)
41. "I used to have a nice view of the mountatins. I used to watch the Sun rise with my wife, every morning, but now that metal monstrosity casts a permanent shadow over my house." on account of Angelwatch(S&R dock-guard, T2)
Other
42. Garrett is always short on cash, even when there's ap. 2000 loot per mission, more than 30k cash in a week. (T3)
43. Quote from Randy, (http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10995&page=4&pp=25)

str8g8 on 7/2/2005 at 11:06

Mugla

Having gone through your new map at the weekend (ie actually going through the process of trying to fit the maps together, rather than just reading through it) I can't really find anything wrong with it! Overall, I think it's as accurate as possible, assuming certain presumptions (ie multiple rivers and so forth).

Plus much kudos for the list of evidence; it seems pretty exhaustive, and I honsestly couldn't think of anything to add.

There are a couple of things I want to discuss in your map while we await Doc's opinion, things which you have openly stated are not set in concrete, but will ultimately be determined by judgement and consensus on all our parts.

1. Poisition of Shalebridge. I earlier suggested Shalebridge would be better situated on the left bank, for the record I have come around to your arrangement. I like the way the OQ is conatained within the 'elbow' of the main river. It's neat and makes sense.

2. Position of AMBUSH map. There are a few places this could go, as you acknowledge. There are three, with various pros and cons: it could represent a part of New market (pros: this places it nearer Shalebridge (see conversation, and note on Ambush map, and Shalebridge Road) cons: means Garrett is living in New Market or New Quarter, contrary to note in T1 and known location in T3). Second, it could be part of Stonemarket (pros: places Shalebridge Road on river bank, which would line up with Shalebridge Cradle theory, also places cemetary behind St Edgars, cons: we already have a Stonemarket map in T3, and again as above Garrett's house moves to Stonemarket, or possibly OQ in T2), Third, the market place is just a small market place, rather than indicating a larger disctrict, and has nothing to do with either Stonemarket or New Market (pros: G can just stay in SQ for all three games :) cons: pulls it even further from Shalebridge :( ) For the record, I have come to the conclusion that where you have it is probably the best of the three.

3. Related to 2. The Shalebridge Cradle. Cleary this is a bit of an anomoly. As you noted, its position is marked clearly on in the cut scene to be at the lower bridge, while Fort Ironwood is near the second bridge. In-game, however, they are both located on the same small cross-section of OQ. We have two choices here: we can accept the evidence as gospel, but this means drastically reducing the scale of the community map to something like 25% of its present size, and causing all kinds of problems of fitting everything in (as in your first draft). The other option is to accept the limitations that the devs were working under (re the size of levels, which were obviously intended to be much larger) and either move the Cradle to back up to the 2nd bridge (as you have done) OR keep the Cradle where it is, and say the in-game portal misses out a whole section of the OQ (as indeed it misses out, say the bridge and the river when you move from OQ to Auldale).

Related to this, the idea of Shalebridge Road winding its way around the city from the Cradle to Shalebridge, via SQ (on the Ambush map) is getting stretched. I suggest we drop this (although it was my suggestion originally) and just stop worrying about the name, OR make a Shalebridge Street, seperate and distinct from the one in the Ambush map, that runs up the side of the river, as originally conjectured.

3. the position of the walled section of OQ: I would prefer Auldale St in the walled seciton to line up exactly with the main road leading to the 2nd bridge, (Auldale Street, leading to Auldale Bridge?). I see no real benefit to rotating it, even slightly; the path of the canal running w-e roughly coincides with the path of the lesser river system - for me that's enough.

anyway, that's enough form me, what does Doc_Brown make of it all?

cheers
str8g8

Mugla on 7/2/2005 at 11:48

I agree with leaving the districts without definitive connection to other districts be for the time's being: let's sort this first and add them related to them at our leisure.

But which map are you referring to? With a quick read, it seems you're discussing the combination of the two. :weird:

Remember, OQ can take practically any of the three bridges; we'll just name that bridge Auldale Bridge then. Let's not chisel our choices just yet...

Yes, let's leave the SB-road out for now; Shalebridge Cradle, as I suggested, could be "the Cradle to house the Shalebridge's orphans"; a noblewoman who took pity on the street urchins that frequent the poor Shalebridge, and thus the name came from 'nurturing the needs of those orphans'. Though if the maps in the end line so, we can name one of them Shalebridge road...

The Ambush! Marketplace IS a marketplace, while the T3 marketplace is more like a few market streets; it isn't too uncommon to have shops near such marketplaces... Oh, and the Baffords cook frequents Stonemarket, so Baffy shouldn't have his mansion too far... I think I should add that as an evidence...

EDIT: Why don't you do your own version in the meantime; I want to see what you're thinking about.