Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
str8g8 on 31/1/2005 at 13:11
Doc_Brown, I think your new map is pretty good ... Your arrangement of New Market and Stonemarket is much more consistent ... I also like the way you have bent The River upstream, it makes the delta seem much more natural ... It reminds me of Manahttan island ... ('specially if you continue the secondary river all the way to the coastline?) I think we are getting somewhere!
Reading back through the forum, it seems quite similar to your original, apart from the borders - this in some ways illustrtates the problems with drawing them on in the first place, it forces the information into unnessessary conclusions (ie splitting up Old Quarter) which seems to have been at the heart of a lot of the disagreement.
Anyway, I would like to formally propose this new map as the cornerstone of the new map project, unless anyone has a problem with it? :grr:
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str8g8te and I have been operating under the notion that Hightowne and Downtowne aren't necessarily districts per se, but terms applied to the nicer and lesser areas of the City. How would you approach this?
I'm really glad you have taken on this notion in some part. I think this will be crucial in untangling the rest of the map. Some interesting things arise out of this cornerstone map ... New Market and Stonemarket have kind of shrunk to the point of being engulfed by South Quarter and Olde Quarter ... would you agree that it is almost as if they are part of these larger districts?
I am proposing 3 tiers of districts, which on the final map would be designated by different size/colour of font etc (which I think you have started doing anyway?):
Regions: Hightowne and Downtowne
Districts: Olde Quarter, South Quarter, Docks
Lesser districts: Stonemarket, New Market
So for instance, if you were standing in Stonemarket, you would also be in the Old Quarter, and Downtowne. This gives the City a far richer and more natural colour, and is far closer to how cities themselves evolve, than merely parcelling up the various areas like big jigsaw pieces ...
The beauty of this, as reflected in your map, is that it elucidates the nature of the The City, rather than obscuring it in a jumble of place names.
cheers
str8g8
str8g8 on 31/1/2005 at 13:36
Spix:
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Auldale and Old Quarter
There is no evidence that Auldale stretches across the river. Nor is there any reason for it to, the TDS map shows us clearly that it is on the right bank of the river (and it's fairly lonely over there as it is, without pulling half of it back on the the left bank). Auldale Street in the walled section of the Old Quarter can just lead to and include a bridge ... Auldale Bridge for instance, which finally leads to the district.#
Everything else you talk about is good speculation. Auld is an old english version of Old, and still used in the vernacular, ie Auld Lang Sine. No doubt the City was populated on both sides of the river from an early point.
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Lastly, Shalebridge Cradle. I am unsure of what this is, but it has been disclosed that it is in the Old Quarter - or near it. If this be the case (correct me if I am wrong) then would it not be close to the proximity of Shalebridge? (It has the same light induction reasoning of Auldale St in the Old Quarter.) Nonetheless, if this is the case, the Old Quarter may reach in part over the river.
This has been discussed a few pages back. The cradle is the institution in TDS, Shalebridge is a district in its own right, and quite why the Shalebridge cradle is in the Old Quarter in TDS is still open for discussion. For instance, I suggested the idea of it being siturated on Shalebridge Road, leading from Old Quarter to Shalebridge.
However, it could also be that Shalebridge borders Old Quarter in the new layout .... ;)
Walled section
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Exactly! In the game I lined myself parallel with Cathedral St and found that the compass' north pointed slightly askance to the right-angle of the map! If we thus turn it (exaggerated below), then the river or canal runs diagonally. Like this:
This seems fairly convincing, but again, I think we need to take this one step at a time, and placing the exact location of the walled section should come later, after the overall layout has been determined.
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Downtowne yes. Hightowne no.
Not sure what your problem with this is, however, I have been to Istanbul, as it is called now, and richer dwelling places you mention are not in the middle of the old town, but rather stretching along the banks of the Dardenelles, well away from the grime and pollution of the centre. As Blackman points out the rich would be as far away from the stink of the Docks as possible.
cheers
str8g8
Mugla on 31/1/2005 at 16:08
Hold on a bit. No-one finished the list of evidence that Doc started, and I fear some piece might be contradicting with this map now (after all, there were good reasons too, when the previous maps placed, say Newmarket on the other side of the river or so...) I'm doing that list now, should be finished soon.
Edit: shortened the excess
theBlackman on 31/1/2005 at 23:38
As has been pointed out NAMES (AULD SHALE) usually have some connection with time and place.
AULD DALE where Dale is a valley, ergo AULD (OLD) DALE (VALLEY) could be a pleasant dip just off the OLDE TOWNE area (IE. A suburb, if you will).
SHALEBRIDGE would indicate (using normal town growth history) an area near a BRIDGE and probably near the hills and a slate mining area. Slate being a common roofing material in those days, Slate is commonly found where shale has been subjected to low-grade regional
metamorphism... It is composed of mica, quartz and other minerals.
The shale itself would be considered a waste product, but shale is also associated with Coal, another mineral The City might use, as did London in our world, for heating and other commercial uses (smithing, foundry work, etc.) And Shale is not uncommonly associated with CLAY for the making of bricks, tile, and pottery.
str8g8 on 1/2/2005 at 12:29
I didn't know you were working on compiling the list ... are you 'classifying' the evidence?
BTW Doc
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Actually, by my reckoning that would be class B information. While everything is technically provided by Ion and LGS, what I meant by info from the devs were comments like Randy's: the devs directly informing the fans of particular facts, like the river
As far as I can see, this would leave only a single piece of class A evidence: Randy's comment about the river? Or are there others?
cheers
str8g8
Mugla on 1/2/2005 at 13:35
I'm quoting directly from the game; I've left speculations out on how believable or how 'interpretable' they are for now, because there are too many combinations with this whole project to dismiss one idea too soon.
I've already noticed a few contradictions like that with Doc's map...
Actually I'll PM it to you first; It might lack a few points I might have missed, and it's too long to post, if we are going to update it several times. Anyone else who wants to take a looksie PM me instead of writing here, okay?
Mugla on 2/2/2005 at 15:11
Here goes!
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/kartou/map1.gif Use the T3 map as reference.
This map is by no means complete, as all T3 cutscene material interferes with it: A problem I ran into after I made the map. I tried to do Doc's map in detail, and the outcome addresses most problems.
-As you can see, a lot of the T3 maps locations have been included: the bigger buildings, like Fort Ironwood's or the Wieldstrom Museum's 'logos' have been overdrawn by the corresponding district's line, making the buildings reside in the correct spots.
-The Auldale/Old Quarter (T3) have been placed on the two sides of the second bridge, as the building-images and the streets seem to correspond. This also gives slight hint of the scale (which is bigger than Doc's current estimate)
-Sealed Section could be under Fort Ironwood, as the memorial is there, but this would give it too little space (if we try to fit it inside the roads, as a newer map would show the used streets (no-one wants tourists to get lost into the Sealed Section in search of a shortcut!)) and places it too close to everything else in the City(if this is a problem). Other option is to add it above Stonemarket, into the corner of the River. Auldale street could be either of the roads coming from the two topmost bridges then (which ever will SS be closest to); the Auldale St. in Sealed Section is horizontal and on the right side, so it was merely re-directed around the Barricade (there is a clear turn around 'something' left from the upper bridge, so it could be there...)
-New Market is now closer to Shalebridge, due to the conversation by the Bafford servants, and 'hometurf' becomes correctly in South Quarter too. The canal going through Assassins! can be derived straight to the Ambush! map, which's marketplace could be part of Newmarket... Newmarket a part of South Quarter? Half-way with Stonemarket? Also the Shalebridge road now goes on the east side of the Ambush! map...
One problem of note occured here:
-SB has been streched out as 'suggested' by Ambush! map, and because Shalebridge road jumped a few times (contradicting placements, see next point: )
-The Shalebridge Cradle caused a bit of a problem; To have the Shalebridge road go both by the Cradle and the Ambush! map, the Ambush! map would have to be stretched between Fort Ironwood and St. Edgar's Church, causing G.'s tenemnt to be practically in Old Quarter *and* next to the Keeper Library: the other possibility is to place the Sealed Section up, so Auldale St. changes place, and have the Shalebridge Road go first just above Fort IW, then turn up before SQ (or simply forget the whole Shalebridge road connection to Cradle... Perhaps it was build to house the many orphans of the poor Shalebridge? :p )
-All the streams/canals should be percfectly fitted where they are.
Problems:
-The Ambush! marketplace doesn't line in with either Newmarket nor Stonemarket; is it a separate market then? Seems big enough to have a name, no? Or a strategic location? If stretched between Fort IW and St Edgar's, like suggested above, the marketplace could be part of Stone Market, and the Helena Way (Ambush!) could be the current Shalebridge Rd. (We might have to do this, as the overall size will drop and the Cradle change place due to T3 cutscenes)(This change might mean, that the Crippled Burrick (Ambush!, T2) would be the same one as T3's Old Quarter Tavern!)
-Lost City north entrance is in Newmarket-south-tip, south entrance in the sea-bottom (kidnap enter). The KD -site as we see it would fall between the Ambush!-map and the Assassins! -map. The Sunken Citadel resembles slightly KD -architecture, sans the blue glow; it could had easily been part of the Lost City, just a section (like, say, the Emperor's Citadel...) that isn't connected to the rest (cave-in inbetween it and LC, new sewer works found it (as you can see, the sewers in Docks are mostly rough caves) and then halted, as the Kurshok was found (taken to Stonemarket's little prison)). Considering that Trixter ruled after the Cataclysm (and that there are fish-head paintings in LostCity (T1), I'd be sure to place their banishment story AFTER the Cataclysm.
Phew! What a load. I need a coffee now.
str8g8 on 3/2/2005 at 10:34
Great work Mugla, but before anything else, are you in broad agreement with Docs core map? It seems your new map has deviated in some respects, you have also gotten ahead of things placing landmarks and streets and so on, whereas we haven't really established the layout of all the known districts. I know it's easy to get carried away (I got carries away myself) but that can just lead going round in circles.
So,taking one thing at a time: if we are all happy with Doc's core map then I think the next step would be to place Shalebridge. You have placed Shalebridge away on the right bank ... However, it strikes me that this is a better placement for the evidence ... (this might be a good time to post your list here too)
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/core_map.pngWhat do you think?
cheers
str8g8
Mugla on 3/2/2005 at 11:26
First I'll wait for Doc to give an answer on that list (and if anyone else thinks they might have some odd tidbit to add, now's the time), but soon. ;)
Shalebridge went on the otherside of the river, cause the Bafford servants said:
"I've never seen the river so low. You can almost walk across at Shalebridge." "Wouldn't New Market love that."
(Oh, I noticed that bit just now: ...walk across at Shalebridge...)
The details came in at the point I tried to fit everything into the Doc's map: It seemed easy, until I tried to fit the T3 Old Quarter: I saw some 3 possible ways to do it: the scale of the map jumped drastically each try, and eventually I noticed that even districts would have to jump too.
Try it yourself: try to add the T3 OQ somewhere, considering all it's exit locations it has; first try took me into the small cross-section at the 2nd bridge, scale of T3 map huge; Cradle would come next to that bridge (as you can see the small green dot in my map): Then I checked the true location of the Cradle, AND the Fort IW compared to it; the new map went so small, that Assassins! map no longer fit inside it properly, and the Docks we see can barely have a Rampone's in it.
The eventual problem; the details have been tied to the districts, thus we can't tie the districts down without considering the details too at the same time. :(
Interesting tidbits from RL:
Newmarkt of Köln is one block in size.
The compass in one of Bordeaux's maps points right, not up.
