Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
str8g8 on 21/1/2005 at 10:19
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Of course, if we take this course of action we'll probably have to come up with two maps, then, one for the days of the dark project/metal age, and one for the dark age, the end of words...
I don't want to have to do two maps, but I guess this information could be incorporated onto a single map anyway ...
I take it you're not too impressed with this simpler solution?
<img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/str8g8/thief_city_map_alt1.png">
SubJeff on 21/1/2005 at 10:49
I've not been following this discussion but I just wanted to pop in and say keep up the good work. When the Editor Comes we may just need this. Badly.
str8g8 on 24/1/2005 at 15:38
Thanks for the encouragement. :)
Quote:
When the Editor Comes we may just need this. Badly.
Yes, that is my motivation at the moment, a nicely drawn and highly detailed city map that anyone creating an FM can refer to ... we just need to decide on a few key points now, and then we can start putting in more detail ... but I think we need to get a move on, if it's going to be ready for the editor.
Raven on 24/1/2005 at 20:33
This being the case could I make the point that there is more creative freedom gained if you leave (at least part off) the old quarter walled off post T:DS
str8g8 on 25/1/2005 at 12:23
Quote:
This being the case could I make the point that there is more creative freedom gained if you leave (at least part off) the old quarter walled off post T:DS
The walled section isn't marked on the above map, but it will be - this is just a very rough sketch re the placement of the key areas of the two key maps. Or am I missing your point? :confused:
Doc_Brown on 25/1/2005 at 19:56
Quote Posted by str8g8te
I don't want to have to do two maps, but I guess this information could be incorporated onto a single map anyway ...
I'm curious, but how would you plan to achieve such an effect?
Quote Posted by str8g8te
I take it you're not too impressed with this simpler solution?
*chuckles* Just because I haven't commented on it yet doesn't mean I dislike it. I was more intent at the moment on determining our methodology (making the map all inclusive versus throwing out bits of information that don't quite fit). Far from disliking it, I think your proposal could work, but I do have a few questions about it:
• Since we have no boundaries to work with on this example, just how do South Quarter and New Market relate? Does SQ completely wrap around it? While I could be wrong, the impression I had was that NM shared, at most, southern and western borders with SQ. What brought on your decision to place it as you have?
• Where and how does Stonemarket fit into your scheme?
Who to Trust?Earlier we were discussing the differences between the Keeper and Assassins maps, and how the former would likely be the more accurate one. Accuracy of information may be an issue we need to consider, as well as determining a method of handling such discrepancies. I refer you to Randy's post (emphasis and notations are my own):
Quote Posted by Randy
Foolish non-believers. You underestimate our powers of anal-retention. We've been working with the same map of The City for 3 games now. It was already there in 1997 when I joined The Dark Project. :p
To be fair,
I'm not sure how religiously everyone's been sticking to it (1) over the years. (Mostly, I think, though.) And there has, of course, been
a fair amount of deliberate misinformation in the dialog and text from T/T2 (2). You can't trust everyone in the city. Sometimes they are either dumb or on their own agenda. So, between these 2 things, I can see how your map isn't perfect.
Anyway, your map is pretty good, impressive, really, but it's off. No, I'm not going to help, sorry, cuz what's the fun of that?
I will point out one major feature that you're lacking though, and it amuses me that never came up explicitly in T/T2. There's a big friggin' river in the city. It runs N-S and splits the city in 2. It joins the ocean to the south.
Keep up the good work. This kind of stuff is always useful to us. It can be hard to keep track of everything we have and have not said (yet).
- R
From this quote we know two things that can make determining the map in any exact nature impossible, and in the very least increases the challenge for us:
1) The developers themselves admit they might have made some mistakes, and
2) Some of the sources we have to rely on might be innacurate.
So, it seems to me we need to figure out an agreed upon method of handling these issues. Perhaps some heirarchy, where certain types of information take precendence over other kinds. For instance:
Information directly from Looking Glass
Information from the Keepers
Information from Garrett
Information from others (written)
Information from others (spoken)
The dilemma, of course, is TDS. We have a different development team to consider, and a different perspective on the Keepers. Suggestions for handling this?
mol on 26/1/2005 at 08:41
Impressive work by all, sort of like virtual archeology and/or anthropology.
I know the scale has been discussed at least in relative terms, as in how big should one part of the City be compared to an other, but have you taffers considered just how big the city would be in absolute terms? How many miles/kilometers across? How wide is the river, how far from each other are some of the recognizable places in the games?
Some idea might be gained by extrapolating based on maps like the one in Ambush, playing the level and trying to relate the scale of the game world to real life measures.
We could also have a look at some of the buildings, like the First City Bank and Trust in Dromed and get some measurements, and scale those to real-world sizes. Actually, we could examine whole maps in Dromed and see how those measure up.
I think there were guidelines as how to scales the structures in Dromed so that they would 'feel right' in the game world.
That would give something to work with in setting up the dimensions and relative sizes and distances of the different districts in the City.
Looking at the map in spix's circlet's comment, the City would seem huge.
str8g8 on 26/1/2005 at 13:32
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Fourth, I re-checked the briefing to the Lost City, and just as I remembered: "The Keepers have sealed the access to the (Lost)City a cleft in the river-bottom near the east-side..." I know, it's hazy. It could be another river, not the River. But who wants that? Atleast it's better than nothing; now it's not just a canal. (also check the briefings view over the river)
Mugla, I apologize, for some reason I missed your earlier post. Some of this has been pointed out earlier in this thread, but that quote from the briefing caught by attention; G says "the river-bottom", not "a river-bottom" surely this points to the fact that this is The River after all? Or at least was intended to be at this time? Or is this what you just said?
As for the speculations, they are quite reasonable, especially the notion that the keeper map is out of date ... this could help quite a lot.
Quote:
I'm curious, but how would you plan to achieve such an effect?
an overlay, a semi-transparent layer in photoshop, with a key to explain it's meaning ... but maybe I misunderstood your meaning, maybe a quick sketch could help? I think these things are very slippery when you're just visualising them.
METHODOLGYThe method I propose would be to nail down these core areas, and then add each of the the remaining districts in turn (after lively discussion of course). Then we can move onto placing particular sites and so on, until we have it all roughed out. Then I can take the rough, and make a finished illustration of it.Quote:
• Since we have no boundaries to work with on this example, just how do South Quarter and New Market relate? Does SQ completely wrap around it? While I could be wrong, the impression I had was that NM shared, at most, southern and western borders with SQ. What brought on your decision to place it as you have?
Boundaries don't always help, I think it best to think in looser terms about districts bordering one another in a medieval city, as Spix's Circlet suggested, quite often they will merge into one another quite seamlessly. In answer to your question it is placed where it is by superimposing the two official maps and just seeing where things line up. There is no specific piece of evidence behind it. It's just an attempt to make everything kind of fit together, without doing anything drastic like cut districts in half, or rotate them etc. A general fudge if you like.
Stonemarket is dictated by the new city map.
Quote:
Information directly from Looking Glass
Information from the Keepers
Information from Garrett
Information from others (written)
Information from others (spoken)
I agree with your hierarchy, but maybe we shouldn't be so dismissive of Ion Storm's contribution, which
is canon, whethere we like it or not, and has also provided the most complete city layout to date. I would simplify it as follows into classes:
A: Info from devs (Ion Storm and LGS)
B: Info from keepers and Gerrett
C: Info from third partiesIncluded in class A evidence would be all the visual materials associated with the missions, and so on, from all 3 games. But we have to accept that even Class A evidence can be flawed,
has to be, in fact, when we consider that at the moment, we are trying to come to reconcile the 2 main Class A pieces of evidence, the keeper map and the new city map.
Maybe it would be a good idea to post your list of facts again, according to this hierarchy, and minus the speculation.
Spix's circlet: it's great to have another brain on this, and I agree with a great deal of your map ... however I think it's getting ahead of things at this stage ... the detail you have put in is something I would like to work towards step by step. I think, though, that we are in general agreement about the Core disctricts?
cheers
straitgait
Doc_Brown on 29/1/2005 at 05:34
Quote Posted by str8g8te
Spix's circlet: it's great to have another brain on this, and I agree with a great deal of your map ... however I think it's getting ahead of things at this stage ... the detail you have put in is something I would like to work towards step by step.
I have to second that. Good job there spix, but let's slow up here and focus on the core City sections (Hightowne, Downtowne, New Market, Stonemarket, South Quarter, Olde Quarter, Wayside, Auldale) before we go off and start extrapolating on the rest (Eastport, Dayport, New Quarter, North Quarter, Shalebridge).
Quote Posted by str8g8te
I think, though, that we are in general agreement about the Core disctricts?
Not quite yet, but very close. I have a couple of issues I'd like to resolve first.
1) New Market. I address this in regards to both of your proposals. What evidence are you citing that shows New Market to be within/below South Quarter? If I've missed something by all means bring it to my attention, but from the evidence I've gathered all I can tell for certain is that New Market is, in the very least, North/Northwest of South Quarter (see Assassins map re: New Market and Home Turf).
2) Stonemarket. Again, to both your proposals. I understand that the TDS map places it above Old Quarter, but we're also in agreement (I believe) that the TDS placement of Old Quarter is in direct conflict with its placement in the Assassins/Keepers maps, right? So why the decision to take it in this direction as opposed to the alternative?
On that same count, (
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v398/Doc_Brown/Miscellaneous/newcrapmap.gif) here is my approach to the issue. I know you dislike boundaries, but I feel it necessary at the moment to underline the relationships between these core districts. Would this not work while maintaining the validity of both pieces of evidence? Your analysis? Secondary note: I've extrapolated the river, as I suggested earlier, to show the relation to the offshoot. Thoughts?
3) Home Turf. Yet again to both proposals. If I'm reading your maps right, Garrett's notation on the Assassins map would place his home turf, South Quarter as noted in game, technically in Wayside, wouldn't it? You can see my dilemma with this.
Quote Posted by str8g8te
would simplify it as follows into classes:
A: Info from devs (Ion Storm and LGS)
B: Info from keepers and Gerrett
C: Info from third partiesIncluded in class A evidence would be all the visual materials associated with the missions, and so on, from all 3 games.
Actually, by my reckoning that would be class B information. While everything is technically provided by Ion and LGS, what I meant by info from the devs were comments like Randy's: the devs directly informing the fans of particular facts, like the river. The visual materials you refer to are, more accurately, provided by Garrett and the Keepers, while third party info would be notes and commentary by the various people living in the City.
Quote Posted by str8g8te
A general fudge if you like.
But the question arises: is that the methodology we're going to use? You can see the problems that will stem from three different approaches, all separately accepting and discounting info based on different principles.
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
Both these parts may stretch in an oblong-ish shape (or simply unorthodox) in order to reach the criteria of evidence.
Though this may be getting ahead of ourselves, nevertheless what criteria would that be?
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
This Quarter may very well be quite large and touch over onto the east bank of the river
Again, evidence?
Quote Posted by spix's circlet
Also, in HAUN, the map appears to be askance to the north. Hence the canal that runs through it may come down diagonally; which is more natural to the gravity of the main river's flow.
I'm leery of rotating maps (have you ever seen a map in real life that wasn't oriented top = north?), but you raise a valid point about the waterway in the Old Quarter running East/West. It bears consideration, though my immediate notion is it's man-made and runs from the offshoot to the main river.
Oh, and one last thought for the night, and this one goes out to spix: str8g8te and I have been operating under the notion that Hightowne and Downtowne aren't necessarily districts per se, but terms applied to the nicer and lesser areas of the City. How would you approach this?
theBlackman on 30/1/2005 at 05:17
Just a casual comment that is historically the case, although not canon for the world, or city of THIEF.
Most port cities, and The City is definitely that, have their beginnings at the waterfront. By this general factor, OLDE QUARTER should be sharing borders with the docks.
By the same token, the wealthy usually build on the hills to have a view and to isolate themselves from the hoi-poloi so HIGH TOWNE would be a distance from the docks, the Olde Quarter, and probably be sited on the hills away from the flats around the river and bayside.
