str8g8 on 13/1/2005 at 13:29

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I don't think it's quite that clear cut. I accept that it is the drawback to the theory, but as I already said, the Assassin's map doesn't fit with the keeper/grotto map in other ways, ie the scale is way off and the street plans don't match at all. I won't go into it again, but due to the necesseties of game design, the assassins map just isn't as good evidence as the keeper/grotto map.

The River on the keeper/grotto map doesn't HAVE to be THE River, but it certainly looks pretty major (according to the scale of that map), so are we saying there are now two major rivers running through the city? So now we have two Old Quarters and two Rivers. It's messy. Why don't we have two cities and have done? I can't understand your reluctance to even entertain a simpler solution, which I have put forward.

On the other hand, if this is the feeling of the community, then I will accept it, in the interests of creating a concensus, and moving on. :)

Mugla on 13/1/2005 at 13:33

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Yes, excactly as I meant (first the pure facts, speculations added to the side). :D
I'm so glad there is atleast someone not too lazy to start this thing. :laff:


I'd say d'Spair's right; the final scene in T3/the map itself suggests (considering the width of the bridge compared to it's length) that the main river is bigger than anything we have seen in any mission, or the above maps.
Now without thinking this through, could it be possible to rotate the Keeper -map only, say, 90 degrees? There are many canals going all around the City (as seen in Ambush!)
I know this brings us forgetting the compass-issue in Assassins, d'Spair, but if we have to go to changing canon-material, then this would seem the smallest thing that would mess things the least, no? First we naturally have to consider other possibilities... And that I leave to you, as you seem to be mired in this deeper than I am. :thumb:


Oh, and the one small thing;
Briefing to The Haunted Cathedral:
"...that was deserted some years ago, after some kind of catastrophe..."
"...Maps on the area are easy to find in attics and old trunks. But like all of them, the one I've got is over 50 years old..."
The wall has been added over the map, possibly by Garrett himself. So if you're going to make Downtowne and Hightowne sections that were renamed after the sealing, there should'nt be any material suggesting them being older than 50. :erg:

Mugla on 13/1/2005 at 16:00

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As I said, I didn't think it through. ;) Let me go indetail what I meant with it:
My guess is, the Assassins map is only a small speckle in the map (the area could even be between the H (South Quarter) and S (Stone Market) in the official map? (Well, not really, but somewhere close?)).
Why?:
-There are a lot of canals throughout the City; if memory serves, one goes through the marketplace in Ambush!, coming in through 2 entries; certainly not big enough for THE River, certainly not in consensus with the Shalebridge -delta you made, and it goes almost West-East direction (not that we should change canon material based on our works now! :erm: ).
-Also the T3 map seems to be a boggle in the detail, as if there would be multiple parks and small rivers going into the big one. :weird: *squints* Do you see the four-legged black octopus just above the Docks -text for example? This would allow a lot of small rivlets (like in the Sealed Section) to exist throughout the City.
-And if the Assassins map is just too small of a representation in the first place (with which I agree with you completely), then why not consider it to be just a far corner of the District, in the adjoining point of Old Q., D. Towne and H. Towne, which continue a mile forward outside the depicted small map?
-Now, if we would only rotate it 90 degrees (or 45), and by considering that none of the district linings are straight but some of them even could be shaped like the letters U or Y (or even G, with the districts twirling around each others) with multiple small tendrils (just like in the map), we could fit everything a lot easier (though the thought size would swell up quite a bit).

I'm not sure if you can understand the above. Had hard time getting the thoughts straightened. :erg:


I'd say we should leave opinions out. Let's keep this completely clinical, listing all the facts, conjectives and possible solutions to any problems and after the work is finished (with multiple solutions), decide which is the closest one. If we decide on one solution over others which might have been better on some other issue, we will continue pondering on the issue ad absurdum. :)

And yes, I know this is a no-life -attempt; I bet the devs didn't think months upon months on the map issue, having several drawings etc. on everything so that they could make everything logical. ;) That's the beauty of the challenge, like a puzzle where the solution needs compromise. :D

str8g8 on 13/1/2005 at 17:26

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I'm afraid I'm not sure of your meaning - are you saying we should decide, or are you saying we should keep our options open?

Well, speaking personally I think we should decide, because everything else will flow naturally from this choice, and it is such a pivotal issue. The facts are there, Doc_Brown already did a great job of listing the textual facts (there's just not that many). Unfortunately they don't take you very far; ultimately you have the old Keeper/grotto map and the new ThiefDS city map; they are the facts, and they don't add up, so unfortunately we can't leave opinions out completely, just keep them to a minimum and ensure that the facts take precedence.

I was suggesting we take it step by step, starting with this pivotal issue and try to form a consensus, before moving on to the next issue, for instance, placing New Quarter. I suppose that is what is happening.



Agreed, there are obviously lots of canals and such throughout the city. My point was that I don't think the river on the keeper/grotto map is just a canal or a tributory, I think it represents The River. I guess the trick is to prove it. :)



To be honest I think that a lot of the detail on the ThiefDS city map is just background, from some old map or something that was scanned in to make it look cool (obviously they couldn't be bothered to draw on all the detail themselves, who would? ... err, apart from me anyway). The important bits are the roads (in white) that have been drawn over the top by the devs, the districts, and the locations of the Clocktower and Fort Ironwood.



Exactly! It's like virtual archeology or something. It's like being a Keeper trying to piece together a map of the lost city from the various fragments that have survived.

cheers
str8g8

Mugla on 13/1/2005 at 17:47

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Hmmm. Yes. The idea of that mess

was that we shouldn't decide, but list the possibilities/theories too just as Doc_B did on facts, and keep them equal until we have all the ties settled(for example that New Market);
You see, where one solution might place Old Quarter onto only one side of the River, the other one might save us from deciding New Market and New Quarter being the same district (or *something* like that). Both could be (situation given) good options at first glance to finally get everything cleared out, but once they are clearly put next to each other, everyone agreeing on cons and pros, we can decide which solutions would go the best.
Was I clearer? :erm:

And yes, T3-map's just scrabble indetail. ;) But the idea stands.

Oh, and;

Prove it! :mad:
( ;) )
EDIT: (Serious! I know mostly people make those decisions because they *feel right*, but I bet it's more than just a hunch with you.)