Mapping out The City.

chrish on 14/12/2004 at 17:14

Nice work, awesome sleuthing!

:thumb:

mol on 14/12/2004 at 17:25

Very impressive. Also very convincing, and your argumentation is logical and compelling. Great work!
:thumb:

Doc_Brown on 15/12/2004 at 05:22

Great work there, str8g8. I'll need a little time to go over your analysis with a fine tooth comb to confirm its quality, but for the time being good job nonetheless. :thumb:

str8g8 on 15/12/2004 at 09:41

cheers guys, I appreciate the support, though I'm sure there's loads of stuff I haven't taken into account.

But what I hope is that through this process the community map project will get to the point where we can make it quasi-official, and that any FM work can be located precisely and consistently within the overall city.

An official community map would also be necessary if we want to fill in the gaps, and make the city streets free-roaming (via load zones). You could divide the map up into sectors and assign them on a first come, first serve basis (I would like to see the community sectors 2 or 3 times the size of T3 areas - with less detail, and PC-only this shouldn't be a problem). I envisage maybe 100 or so would be enough... these could then provide load zones to any other FMs.

cheers
straitgait

Mugla on 19/12/2004 at 20:33

Can't remember now what the talk was, but in Ramirez' room there's a book that says Garrett lives in South Quarter.

So here comes a theory(*wild* one! ;) ) ; what if Garrett has many apartments rent throughout the city? Then the rent would be more to his level of thieving (why he is complaining about it so much), and would give that extra security I would go in such a job.

Nevermind. I'll find my own way out.

d'Spair on 19/12/2004 at 21:53

Great map, the more I look at it, the more I understand that it's great. str8g8, what if you go on and continue exploring the resources in order to make the map more precise? :rolleyes:

There's only one thing that makes me confused - the scale. If we look at the place on your map where Assassins take place, we see that this small part of the City actually much bigger that the whole Dayport, for example, according to your map. This is definately incorrect.

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What I found was that the keeper map does not line up with the T3 city map, until that is you rotate the keeper map approx 180 degrees. Basically what I’m saying is the keeper map (and consequently all community maps) are upside down.

Yes, but Assassins actually takes place in the same area that is shown in the Keepers map, but the compass there shows us that the layout of the Keeper's map is correct, and North there is to the up...

And about Shalebridge - how can it be located so far from Old Quarter if Shalebridge Cradle in Thief 3 located actually IN Old Quarter?..

Allon on 19/12/2004 at 22:25

In T2 we learn that Garrett has a fence in Shalebridge, I doubt it´s in the Old Quarter...

Digital Nightfall on 20/12/2004 at 22:04

Great new map! It's nice to see someone try to make the DS stuff coexist with the old stuff.

I included the DS stuff in the city map made for cosas, creating two 'old quarters' ... I belive in DS they say South Quarter is the oldest district... so I created what I called "Old South Quarter" and was done with it.

str8g8 on 21/12/2004 at 10:25

Thanks for the feedback, it's observations like this that forces you to think more closely about these things.

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Can't remember now what the talk was, but in Ramirez' room there's a book that says Garrett lives in South Quarter.

He lives in SQ in DS as well, and what's more I can accurately pinpoint his house on the new map, as the streets from DS SQ are incorporated in the road network.

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Great map, the more I look at it, the more I understand that it's great. str8g8, what if you go on and continue exploring the resources in order to make the map more precise?

Thanks! And that's exactly what I intend to do, except there isn't a great deal more resources to go on. I want to get the overall structure right before I put in every alley.

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Yes this is a problem. I haven't actually played Assassins lately to verify this. (Need to get hold of some saves). If the compass in the actual mission shows that new market is south west and old quarter is north east, as I'm fairly sure it does, then it messes everything up.

However, I really don't like the assassins map very much. It doesn't line up with the keeper map in many other ways (like the scale, as you point out, but also the river, which isn't big enough either, and also the layout of the streets, which bare no relation to the keeper map). In fact, the only thing that connects the two in any way is the city wall layout.

It is possible to put this down to the limitations and necessities of level design (which was the main concern of making the game, lets not forget, consistency with the map would have been a secondary consideration) and don't forget Randy's statement about misleading info. It is annoying, because these are two key pieces of evidence (assassin map and keeper map) that don't agree with each other (and they're both from Thief I as well, never mind later maps). But I'm prepared to overlook the discrepancies in the assassin map because turning the keeper map upside down solves so many other problems. Imagine a certain flow of events; designing and building a level in dromed, and then deciding well maybe Ramirez should be based in Hightowne, and then trying to make it fit in with the keeper map, and then realising you would need to flip your entire level so the compass rose is pointing the rigght way ... well, I don't know about Dromed, but I imagine this would be a pretty nasty job. I'd be tempted to just leave it, after all, who's going to worry, apart from a few anal-retentive geeks :p and there's nothing in the keeper map to openly contradict it, because as I mentioned, a compass rose and the ocean are conspicuously absent.

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And about Shalebridge - how can it be located so far from Old Quarter if Shalebridge Cradle in Thief 3 located actually IN Old Quarter?..

Yes, that's a good point. The Shalebridge Cradle is not in Shalebridge, it's in Old Quarter, and on my map it's not even that close. Proximity wouldn't be the only explanation of the name though, again the necessities of game design could - maybe the designers were originally going to put in a Shalebridge city section which got cut, and so the Asylum level got moved to OQ, but they didn't want to change the name (it's a good name after all, Old Quarter Cradle is rubblish). Maybe - and this maintains continuity - the Cradle borders a Shalebridge Road, which runs up the side of the river from OQ or the Docks to Shalebridge?

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I included the DS stuff in the city map made for cosas, creating two 'old quarters' ... I belive in DS they say South Quarter is the oldest district... so I created what I called "Old South Quarter" and was done with it.

I considerd the possibility for a while of two old quarters, or rather the old quarter bring split across both banks. Is there anywhere I can see this map? Is it on the site?

cheers
straitgait

he flys on 21/12/2004 at 10:40

Don't know if it hass been asked, but what happenend to all the zombies that used to occupy the old quarter?