Mapping out The City.

Karlfox on 6/11/2001 at 20:06

Any of the canals in the City could have been large(r) rivers some time ago. There are parts of the world today that rise several meters each century due to the melting of glaciers that weighed down the land for centuries. So had the City once had a central river flowing through it and been situated in one such area, the land could have risen since then, the water diverted, and all that remains is a small canal. Had the area risen, over time more land along the coast would appear, and the City would expand into it. This would account for why the Old Quarter does not appear to be at the docks, where a settlement would likely appear first. In the course of only a (few) hundred years (a short time for a city the size of the City to develop), the land could easily have risen a few meters. Just a thought.

Oliver Gregory on 7/11/2001 at 19:45

Quote:

Originally posted by Karlfox: Any of the canals in the City could have been large(r) rivers some time ago. There are parts of the world today that rise several meters each century due to the melting of glaciers that weighed down the land for centuries. So had the City once had a central river flowing through it and been situated in one such area, the land could have risen since then, the water diverted, and all that remains is a small canal. Had the area risen, over time more land along the coast would appear, and the City would expand into it. This would account for why the Old Quarter does not appear to be at the docks, where a settlement would likely appear first. In the course of only a (few) hundred years (a short time for a city the size of the City to develop), the land could easily have risen a few meters. Just a thought.<hr></blockquote>

Canals are man-made, ie. not small rivers <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Also, Randy pointed out earlier in the topic that the city does have a large river running throught it. I don't think the old quarter was supposed to be the initial site of the City either.

scumblearpe on 28/11/2001 at 09:44

Having read the seven pages of the thread, I decided to have a go at constructing a map myself, based on the latest version by Wille (good stuff, by the way). I've been arranging the in-game maps and drawing over and around them, accounting for possible inaccuracies in the "sketch" maps. I tend to think of the Keepers' map in The Haunted Cathedral as the most accurate. You can actually superimpose the Assassins map quite comfortably on top, which brings up some issues of scale, mainly the relative sizes of Newmarket, HighTowne, The Olde Quarter and DownTowne - which pushes the other districts about, it seems. I'll try posting a version for criticism when it looks half presentable.

Quote:

Originally posted by Oliver Gregory: 

Canals are man-made, ie. not small rivers <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Also, Randy pointed out earlier in the topic that the city does have a large river running throught it. <hr></blockquote>

I don't think they were able to quite replicate large rivers in the game, so they kept to small flowing sections of water. It doesn't mean that the City isn't supposed to have a larger river running through. The way they appear in-game, canal-like waterways seem to be purpose-built conduits of the water supply, you'd think built by the Hammers some time ago (possibly).

Although there is the question of this drought, which I don't know the background of. There seems to be plenty of water about to me.

Another map coming soon, anyway.

scumblearpe on 29/11/2001 at 09:32

I'm not sure where to put the Downwinders! It's easy to put Donal and Rueben's places in relation to the Overlord's Fancy, but I haven't yet found evidence of its location. I put it in Shalebridge, for lack of anywhere better.

The opera house probably sits on the Olde Quarter, no? The caverns are supposed to be directly underneath.

Cypher628 on 29/11/2001 at 23:54

Put my stuff on this map! On the edge of the city to the outer edge of dayport is where my FM takes place, and on the edge of Dayport there is a big new hotel.

 ~Cypher

242 on 8/3/2002 at 21:36

I don't want to be troublemaker here, the current City map looks very cool, but there is one thing which bothers me.

I just have re-read all this thread and don't quite understand, why do you believe that Garrett's apartment is located in New Quarter in Thief2? Why do you belive Garrett has moved to new apartment in Thief2 at all?

Quote:

Garrett - South Quarter 'independent' thief. Denied cut three \
times. Sent Quince and Jacow out to shorten him.

The only explanation I have seen about why Garrett has moved is that the map in Ambush!/Courier looks certainly different from the map in Assassins. Yes it's different. But Garrett lives in South Quarter in TDP. Did we actually have any TDP South Quarter mission? How do you know the quarters looks different? It seems the 'Home Turf' on Assassins map is rather neighbourhood around Garrett's apartment in South Quarter, which includes part of DownTowne and southern part of South Quarter. The area in Assassins where you have to escape isn't located in the immidiately proximity to Garrett's apartment, it's just imaginable border of the 'Home Turf'. To get home Garrett needs to cross DownTowne in the first place.

Quote:

Grundbegriff:
where multiple possibilities are available with little or no in-game support, I tend to prefer the simplest or most-supported interpretation, the one that requires the fewest assumptions or the most likely ones.

I totally agreed with Grundbegriff here. The simpliest possibility in this case is to suppose that Garrett hasn't moved and still lives in his old apartment in South Quarter. The apartment in Ambush!/Courier is in the southern part of the map as it should to be for good correspondence with Assassins map. In this case Shalebridge could be located to the east or south-east from DownTowne.

What do you think?

MaJiC@work on 12/3/2002 at 00:54

Just thought you'd all like to know that I've taken over the Thief World Map Project from Doc_Brown who unfortunately doesn't have time to run it anymore.

The map I'm working on is going to be interactive - i.e. you can zoom in and out. I want to include a map of the City and so I enter this ongoing debate!

Is Wille's map the current definitive map? I know all this is subject to change but I wondered if we are nearing a concensus of opinion - in other words a comfortable compromise that we are all happy with??? :confused:

What would be great is if all of you who have created a map re-posted the links here together with the date the map was created.

BTW, if you want to catch up on the TWMP visit these threads:

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11157) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11157

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45219) http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45219

MaJiC :thumb:

Wille on 12/3/2002 at 17:13

Well my map is a mixture of my own visions, GB's visions and Naug's visions of the city...:angel:

ACT SMILEY on 12/3/2002 at 22:18

Quote:

Originally posted by 242
apartment in South Quarter, which includes part of DownTowne and part of South Quarter. The area in Assassins where you have to escape isn't located in the immidiately proximity to Garrett's apartment, it's just imaginable border of the 'Home Turf'. To get home Garrett needs to cross DownTowne in the first place.

its a dead end area. It can't be in the area and the Thief II building is a much different style.

Quote:

simpliest possibility in this case is to suppose that Garrett hasn't moved and still lives in his old apartment in South Quarter. The apartment in Ambush!/Courier is in the southern part of the map as it should to be for good correspondence with Assassins map.
What do you think?

its a highly different area design, there is nowhere where one could lead on to the other.
Its easier to assume Garrett moved than that it leads on when we'd need to create a complex winding street design for it to fit together from stuff that isn't in either game.

242 on 22/3/2002 at 00:28

Quote:

its a dead end area.

I assume it's not a dead end. If you think that if you couldn't pass through that red gate in the end of the alley it's necessarily a dead end then the entire map can be considered as a dead end, because you can't just go endlessly in any direction. I assume the red gate wasn't locked or in any case was passable for Garrett with all his skills.

Quote:

It can't be in the area and the Thief II building is a much different style.

Indeed, the layout and architecture of Assassins and Ambush! levels are different.

The area where Assassins ends is in DownTowne. Check Assassins map and you'll see. So I assume that Garrett does need to pass across a section of DownTowne to get to South Quarter and his apartment. You can't see Garrett's apartment and buildings which are very close to it in Assassins. What you can see however is just the border area of his rather large neighbourhood called "The Home Turf". What I try to describe here is that indeed the areas in Assassins and Ambush! are different, but it doesn't prove that a part of the Ambush! map can't be the same area where Garrett lived in times of The Dark Project, because in ASSN we can't see South Quarter and it's buildings.

However, I agree that Garrett could change his apartment in T2 and his new apartment could be in New Quarter. But I tend to prefer the simplest interpretation.

Quote:

its a highly different area design, there is nowhere where one could lead on to the other.

The quarters in the City can differ drastically. I can't see why area design in South Quarter (Ambush!) can't highly differ from DownTowne's one (Assassins) even though they are adjacent. Perhaps one was constracted in 50-100 years after another.

Hope it makes any sense.

ps: it would be just GREAT if T3 team included VERY DETAILED, and HUGE map in form of big poster if not in any T3 box then in special edition ones. It would really help newbies to sense a hugeness of the City and deepness of the game even before they start to play it and would very please veterans. After all it would be a good marketing trick even though it would cost couple of weeks of hard work of an good artist and a few additional aids who would thoroughly collect information from T1/T2/T3. I'm sure Randy is aware about we want the map, but it's unclearly how it will be implemented: either as an ingame map and/or (as I prefer) some sort of a poster.

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