Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
Diceman on 4/10/2001 at 01:48
I think my idea about the mountains being north of the City must be wrong. I forgot what the guard in S&R said about Angelwatch blocking his view of the mountains and the sunrise. The mountains must be east of the City (assuming that the sun in Garrett's world behaves like our sun does). Still, I think that the river probably flows out of the mountains north of the City, and then turns south to flow through the City and into the ocean.
As for the river flowing through the Old Quarter. Maybe it is just a sewer or a canal, but we might have to write off this whole "size of the river" problem as an oversight in continuity. Maybe the idea of a drought in the region was thought up after the levels were created, and it was decided that it wasn't an important enough plot point to warrant redesigning every level that showed the river. The drought certainly doesn't seem to affect the story or gameplay in any way. In other words, maybe the river that we see in the game is supposed to be the river in its normal state.
As for food being imported into the City, and the tarriffs; the fact that there is a tarriff on food entering the City doesn't mean that the food comes from very far away. The import duties are almost certainly collected when the merchants pass through the City gates; like modern-day border crossings, they'd be a major bottleneck and the perfect point for collecting tarriffs and duties. There could be an apple orchard right outside the City walls, but if the farmer wanted to bring his apples into the City, he'd have to pay the fees.
Also consider the nature of food, specifically in regards to spoilage. Fresh food doesn't store or transport well. Indeed, sailors never had fresh fruit or vegetables on their ships because they would spoil too quickly. There's no evidence that the Citizens have artificial preservatives to extend the shelf life of food, and they don't even seem to have canning technology (keeping food in metal tins is not the same as canning it; not by a long shot). The Mechanists have a freezer on Markham's Isle, but this is the only one we've ever seen, so I'm inclined to believe that it's a new invention (either a Mechanist invention, or a Hammerite invention that they've copied). The sum of the evidence suggests that the food we see in the City wouldn't stay unspoiled very long, so the trip between farm and City must not be a long one.
And what do you think about my idea that they might have domesticated deer as a source of meat? I mean, considering that deer legs are about as common in the City as steaks are in America...
Oliver Gregory on 4/10/2001 at 15:39
Quote:
Originally posted by Diceman:
<STRONG>I think my idea about the mountains being north of the City must be wrong. I forgot what the guard in S&R said about Angelwatch blocking his view of the mountains
and the sunrise. The mountains must be east of the City </STRONG>
Hmmm, as I pointed out earlier in this topic ;)
On the matter of the Bonehoard - it clearly isn't in the Old Quarter, since The Haunted Cathedral mission is Garrett's first visit there. I think it's probably in a very remote area, but not that far from the City, maybe 25-50 miles because of the familiar way Cutty mentions it in. Of course it could be a long way away, just famed for the undead and the Horn of Quintus.
I hope the water crystal discussion has finished now :)
Doc_Brown on 18/10/2001 at 03:40
Fascinating thread you guys, very in depth. I myself am working on a map of the areas surrounding The City in order to help envision things better for a fanfic I'm working on. Just a couple of thoughts/questions...
1) There's a way to explain the discrepancy of the sun rising in the West, which Potted's comment clued me in to. Now everyone knows that the sun appears to rise and set because of the counterclockwise rotation of the earth. But, as Potted pointed out, this isn't earth. Therefore, the conclusion is logical: the world in which Thief is set rotates clockwise on its axis.
Now before you lay into me with astrophysics, let me back that statement up with some facts. In our solar system, every single planet and moon rotates counterclockwise... except for Venus. We're not quite sure why it does this, but Venus in fact rotates in a clockwise fashion. Thus, the sun rises in the West and sets in the East there. I believe this to be the case here as well. Interesting new facet of life in The City, isn't it?
2) Where, pray tell, can I get one of those blank scrolls that the ingame maps/letters use? I'd like to slap my map on one of those for authenticity. On a similar note, where can I get one with text on it (so I can match the ink color)?
3) Lastly, where can I get the font used ingame, again for authenticity? Soon as I finish with this, I'll send it to whomever would like it (TTLG, The Circle, KoMaG, etc). Note that I'm not saying it will be artistic mastery. I'm just saying it gives an interesting view at the turf outside of The City.
roperrs on 18/10/2001 at 05:38
"Pay careful attention to the moon, it could mean that the City is in the southern hemisphere, which may influence a few things."
I think I read that the stars in the game are the actual stars seen from Earth as seen in winter at midnight at 42 degrees north.
Actually I'm not sure about if it was north or not, but that can easilly be checked. Anyway, the 42 degrees latitude gives you some idea of the climate.
Richard on 18/10/2001 at 16:39
Quote:
Originally posted by Doc_Brown:
<STRONG>
2) Where, pray tell, can I get one of those blank scrolls that the ingame maps/letters use? I'd like to slap my map on one of those for authenticity. On a similar note, where can I get one with text on it (so I can match the ink color)?
3) Lastly, where can I get the font used ingame, again for authenticity? Soon as I finish with this, I'll send it to whomever would like it (TTLG, The Circle, KoMaG, etc). Note that I'm not saying it will be artistic mastery. I'm just saying it gives an interesting view at the turf outside of The City.</STRONG>
1) Look on the Thief discs and find files with 'CRF' as file types - open them in winzip and look for files marked 'book'
2) Thief fonts can be found in The Circle's media archives, made by The Riddler. They're quite good, especially if you're using Paint Shop Pro and smoothing them off. You should smudge them just slightly (don't overdo it!!) for authenticity.
Salokin on 21/10/2001 at 15:55
On the overflowing canal issue:
As far as I recall, there weren't that many occasions where the water current was overly strong (ie. such that Garrett was unable to swim against the current). Now, from a purely physical standpoint, in normal (non-drought) conditions the very same channels which now hold relatively slow moving water could handle a far greater amount of water if the water moved faster through the channels. The City authorities may, as a result of the drought, have closed a number of the sluice gates which control the flow of water through the City's waterways. In normal circumstances these gates would be kept open, leading to a far swifter current without flooding.
Just a theory of course, but it fits the available facts without any need for previously unseen rivers or underground tributaries etc...
Digital Nightfall on 6/11/2001 at 16:01
Question ... Since Raputo, as a warden, controls three districts, as does Ramirez ... which would you say is the most likely case?
A) There are a dozen wardens, each controlling one or more districts, meaning that there are dozens of districts we do not know about.
B) There are only a small handful of wardens (four or five) and we know about just about all districts.
C) Some wardens control parts of districts, sharing it with others (possibly not so peacefully) ... there are dozens of wardens, and we know about just about all the districts
Best answer is probably the one which leaves for the most variables and pen interpretation, but ... which? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Sneaksie Thiefsie on 6/11/2001 at 17:12
Quote:
Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:<br /><strong>Best answer is probably the one which leaves for the most variables and pen interpretation, but ... which? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>
The theory I'm expounding in the Theses is the existence of two varieties of districts: Greater and Lesser Districts. Greater Districts are the large, powerful ones that are definite canon - examples are Hightowne, Old Quarter and South Quarter. Lesser Districts are small ones intended for the newly ennobled. They're small, feeble, and in thrall of the larger districts...and provide justification for the many other districts that have been created in fan works.
My theory is that there are several [5-6] City Wardens who control the Greater Districts [or, rather, enough of the District to be considered the prime controller] with lesser criminals or guilds perhaps controlling the lesser districts. I'm not suggesting that the Wards match the districts exactly - rather that Rasputo controls a Ward that roughly matches the three districts.
I like the idea of Wardens being in conflict over the occupation of certain districts...lots of potential for expansion on that theme. I tend to see the City Wardens as Mafia dons...part of a criminal fraternity in conflict with each other, but perhaps working together against the FBI/City Guard.
Sneaksie Thiefsie
Oliver Gregory on 6/11/2001 at 17:21
I like the idea that the wardens are fighting over certain districts, and that they vary a lot in size (districts in any city do). I also think there are a LOT of districts that aren't mentioned in Thief, and we don't know about (yet). However, not all of these will be full of crime, eg. class divides, amount/skill of policing etc - but a lot probably are.
Digital Nightfall on 6/11/2001 at 18:25
Quote:
Greater and Lesser Districts. Greater Districts are the large, powerful ones that are definite canon - examples are Hightowne, Old Quarter and South Quarter. Lesser Districts are small ones intended for the newly ennobled. They're small, feeble, and in thrall of the larger districts...and provide justification for the many other districts that have been created in fan works.<br /> <hr></blockquote>
Sounds good to me. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
