Mapping out The City. - by Digital Nightfall
Richard on 1/10/2001 at 19:34
Since this has been brought back up I must swallow my pride and admit that, yes, water crystals may well form in urinals!
The reason for this is, as I heriocally dashed through the last levels of Thief Gold, my eye was drawn to a fire arrow, in a fire. A fire that was a burning hammerite banner. Since it must have been fairly recent, the crystal must have formed mighty fast, and no enemies in that area were using fire arrows. So, if fire arrows can form that fast, I geuss water crystals can as well...
Maybe then, we could try and form a final picture and see if anyone is willing to create a decent map? My RPG guides are coming along well, and a map would be an excellent addition to the material.
I can draw, but I usually do character portriats rather than maps, and I don't use nice glossy computer graphic programs...
vesuvius on 2/10/2001 at 01:34
that would be a urine crystal then, not a water crystal ;)
Grundbegriff on 2/10/2001 at 04:06
Quote:
Originally posted by vesuvius:
<STRONG>that would be a urine crystal then, not a water crystal ;)</STRONG>
Also known as a pysstal.
Sneaksie Thiefsie on 2/10/2001 at 17:17
Quote:
Originally posted by Dr_Octogon:
<STRONG>The one thing most people agree on here is that crystals form in standing water, like a lake, puddle etc. Then if that's true wouldn't plenty sources of water be pure naturally, anyway? The waterworks in "song of the caverns" collected its water from the underground lake with water crystals already growing in it. Wouldn't the water already be pure then? The point is, if the waters already pure, why bother purifying it again? Perhaps because the pipes aren't too clean, but isn't that a pretty expensive luxury, purifying your water twice? For example I don't think the police budget would cover something that's not even completely necessary.
Also, why are there water crystals in puddles? They can't have been there for more than a week possibly two, and if they're so valuable then why hasn't anyone bothered to take it over that period (unless it only formed very recently).
But, yeah, um. Mapping! Yes!</STRONG>
I resolved to stay out of this argument a while back, as I always seemed to get burnt, but I felt this deserved a reply.
Assuming for a minute that water crystals do purify the water, I can only see them as having a limited radius. Arguable, but realistic. Agreed? As a result, I can't see them purifying a whole lake, unless convection caused water to be continually moved across the crystals. Besides which, purifying the whole lake is not cost effective - it would quickly become contaminated, and no-one needs a whole lake of pure water.
As a result, I think that the crystals are in the lake for another reason, or due to another cause. The essential argument here - as it seems to me - is whether the crystals are cause or effect. Having listened to the arguments presented, I'm inclined to believe in a mixture of the two viewpoints.
Grundebegriff has persuasively argued that the crystals form naturally, and I'm inclined to agree with him. As I see it, they form in too unusual places e.g. deserted pools for them to be artificially placed there. However, I don't think that they form everywhere - I believe that they only form in large bodies of water, such as pools. Why? No idea - perhaps a combination of higher water pressure and volume that aids, or causes, the natural magic that makes water crystalise. Same with fire crystals - I've never seen them in the small flames of candles and torches, but only in large fires.
However, the fact that water crystals are also prevalent in artificial, domestic sources of water e.g. sinks, basins, etc causes me to think that they also have a common, domestic purpose. I'm inclined to think that it's to do with the purification, cleaning, regulation or flavouring of water. Admittedly a broad list, but without further data its impossible to narrow it down further.
The fact that the Blackbrook Underguild are - illegally - importing elemental crystals into the City is a piece of canon that disrupts the theory of both sides of the argument. If crystals are so prevalent, why is the Underguild - presumably a criminal organisation - importing them for a profit? Indeed, Ramirez says that the crystals are importables, implying that they're a recognised resource.
The simplest explanation [I think] might be that the crystals from Blackbrook are a better quality, and that the City has banned them to promote the purchase of 'home-grown' crystals. Perhaps the noble households that want the better quality crystals have contacts with the Wardens that allow them to be provided with the better quality ones - for a fee. Of course, that begs the question of why the City is regulating trade when anyone can just get a large source of water
and make water crystals. Perhaps it's just that the major sources of crystals are under control - after all, Garrett tends to find them in pretty unexploitable situations.
Maybe the City is just imposing economic sanctions on Blackbrook, who they're at war with [is that right? I can't remember if it's canon]. That would make sense. The City bans the profitable import of higher-quality crystals into the City deny Blackbrook a source of income. The nobility want their better crystals, and are prepared to deal for them on the shadow economy - the black market that the Wardens provide.
As to why the City forms poor-quality crystals - no idea. Perhaps - to go out on a limb here - the presence of the Eye/Trickster affects it? Certainly elemental crystals are tied in with him - note the Maw and the portal from his world etc etc
Anyway, that's my £0.02. Feel free to knock down as much as you want. :)
Sneaksie Thiefsie
Wille on 2/10/2001 at 18:44
Inline Image:
http://www.geocities.com/villepaa/city1.jpg This is my version of Grund's and Naug's map. I have added some well known places, second part of the river, and some other nice stuff.
And here's my explains of location and so:
Haunted part of the city, well I think that the Olde Quarter was the first part of the city before the catastroph happened about fifty years ago. Survivors of the accident (led by former Baron I think) walled the haunted section of Olde Quarter.
Mechanists seminery, is the old Hammerite cathedral. I think that Mechanists came and cleaned the cathedral area from all undead and when the Eastport was build, the seminery was joint to Eastport.
Garret's home in T1, everybody should know this.
Lost city entrance, check your map in mission: The Lost City
Angelwatch, it's in Dayport but my location for it is just a guess.
Rampone docks, you can see the lower mountains in mission Shipping and receiving just next to Davidsons ship.
Garrets hideout, well it's in Shalebridge like he said.
Ramirez mansion, in mission Assasins, look to your map and you'll see that the mansion is in High Towne near to the New Market.
Garrets home in T2, I think that it was in New Quarter because Garrett probably had a lot of money so he could bought a nice apartment from New Quarter which I think was a middle class part of the city.
Lord Bram G's mansion, he is very rich man and High Towne is for rich people. Look at the buildings near Bram's mansion and look at buildings near First City Bank, yes they look like same, so thats why I think that the Bank is also in High Towne.
Hammerite Temple, look the Keepers map in THC.
Mechanists Cathedral, well their cathedral is quite new I think, and New Quarter can also be quite new part of the town. And the industrial zone near cathedral, well mechanists make all fancy gears and stuff that industry needs so their main factory could also be in cathedral.
Shoalsgate station, just a wild guess.
Old city walls, these can be found in THCs map.
And why is there a second river? Look the Keepers map again and thee shal see that there's somthing like a river in left corner of the map. The north mountains, Hammers old cathedral is near those mountains and so is the Olde Quarter. I think that the city was once a mining city and miners and Hammers lived in Olde Quarter, every place needed a religious place so the Hammers build their mighty cathedral.
Everything you can see in the map is just my imagination (+of course Grund's and Naugs work <IMG SRC="thumb.gif" border="0"> ). And please say your opinion about that map.
Sneaksie Thiefsie on 2/10/2001 at 20:02
Looking good, very good indeed. It looks very disorganised and random, which is exactly how it should be. Medieval cities [and the City is Medieval in architecture] developed organically and randomly as the need arose.
Just one point to make - why have you situated Shoalsgate Station in the centre of the South Quarter, in the centre of the City? The 'shoals' seems to imply that it is in or near an area such as a port, probably where fish were landed, or close to an area where they were fished. The 'gate' seems to imply it's part of a wall. Such a wall would likely enclose a new quarter or some other identifiable zone, rather than run through a district in an arbitary fashion.
Bearing that in mind, it seems to me that a better place for the station might be somewhere in Dayport, probably near the Western river. A place where fishing ships would bring the fish while the place was still a port, and where the station would be constructed to control the unsavoury elements until the area was gentrified. Further, it is possible that a wall, sea wall or other such construction could have been built to guard the channel from enemies or bad weather, creating a need for a gate at that location; thus, Shoalsgate.
Just my £0.02. And keep up the good work!
Sneaksie Thiefsie
Diceman on 3/10/2001 at 02:13
Regarding the water crystal controversy: here's something to think about: air crystals give off vapors, and fire crystals give off light. Perhaps those water crystals found lying in puddles of water in the street were somehow lost, and are "leaking" water. In other words, maybe the puddle is not the cause of the crystal, but an effect of it.
Really, I don't see where Grundbegriff's and CyberFish's/Silencer's views have to come into conflict. I agree with Grundy that elemental crystals probably form naturally. But I also see merit in the economic arguments that have been advanced. To paraphrase some famous author (whose name I don't remember) "If gold were as plentiful as dirt, and anyone could reach down and scoop up a handful, then gold would be no more valuable than dirt." Water crystals may form naturally, but they don't form overnight in every bathtub or puddle. If they did, then Garrett would not have to pay fifty Loot for a single crystal; he could walk into any store and pick up a six-pack of water crystals for a copper coin or two, and then go home and chug a few before his mission :)
(BTW: In the spirit of "assume it's like its real-world counterpart, unless we know otherwise," I'm assuming that 1 Loot is approximately equal to 1 U.S. dollar)
This about it like this: zombies seem to occurr naturally, but that doesn't mean that you can expect every corpse to become undead. For whatever reason, only some of them do this. Similarly, every bucket of water doesn't form a water crystal, it's more rare than that.
I agree that water ctystals must have some domestic use if so many people store them. Certainly the entire City doesn't use them to douse torches so they can sneak past guards? ;) Consider the water arrow's other known use: it cleans up bloodstains. Even if the bloodstain is on a carpet, and there's nowhere for the blood to be washed into (such as a drain or sewer grate), that blood is gone without a trace every time. Is it really that unreasonable to figure that water crystals possess some kind of special cleaning/purifying power?
My opinion is that water crystals occurr naturally, but that they are an uncommon occurance, or else one that takes some amount of time to form. They have a widespread use(s) among the people of the City, and are collected and sold for this(these) purpose(s). We don't know for sure what these uses are, but uses along the lines of cleaning/purifying and transporting/storing water would appear to fit in with the water crystals' known properties.
Diceman on 3/10/2001 at 02:46
Whoops, I forgot that we were supposed to be mapping out The City :o .
About the Bonehoard, I think that it might be outside of the City. It certainly seems to be in an unpopulated area without other people around. I tend to imagine this huge cemetery just outside of the City walls, with the Bonehoard underneath it. It's possible that the Bonehoard might be in the Old Quarter, but we see no sign of it when Garrett goes in after the Eye.
About the Mages' Towers (in Thief Gold): a note somewhere says that the towers' sewers run "all the way to the City." Obviously, then, the Mages' Towers are outside of the City. They can't be more than a few miles outside of the City walls, however, or else they couldn't have a sewer connection.
Overall, I imagine that the mountains (and thus Cragscleft and other mines) are to the north of the City. The river flows out of the mountains, through the City and into the sea. Yes, I think that that little creek that flowed though the Old Quarter was supposed to be the river. It only looks like a little canal because of the drought ;) Forrests approach the City on at least one side (the point about the Mechanists' war party was a good one). I must imagine that vast tracts of farm land are also nearby. Where do you think the Citizens get all of those apples, cucumbers, carrots, and loaves of bread? Given how many deer legs are seen, I would speculate that maybe deer have been domesticated, akin to how we have domesticated cattle.
Sneaksie Thiefsie on 3/10/2001 at 20:34
Quote:
Originally posted by Diceman:
<STRONG>Yes, I think that that little creek that flowed though the Old Quarter was supposed to be the river. It only looks like a little canal because of the drought.</STRONG>
Assuming that to be the case, one dreads to think what would happen when the river is in full flow. IIRC, the walls are only about a foot higher than river itself. If the drought were to end, the river would burst its banks, and flood the entire area. Besides, if it were a river then there would be movement in the water - in THC, it's stagnant.
I think that a more likely explanation is that it's an open sewer, which was perhaps formerly covered with planks. If we wish to continue the river theory, then perhaps the original river was built over and used as a sewer, which has then become blocked due to the years of neglect in that area of the City.
Quote:
Originally posted by Diceman:
<STRONG>Where do you think the Citizens get all of those apples, cucumbers, carrots, and loaves of bread? Given how many deer legs are seen, I would speculate that maybe deer have been domesticated, akin to how we have domesticated cattle.</STRONG>
I can't think of much canon that either refutes or confirms this. However, in Undercover the Hammers say that the Baron "means to raise the tarriffs again, even on greens and meat". To me, this seems to imply that the City has no grazing land for cattle/deer/sheep/etc, and likewise no land suitable for arable crops. This is odd, considering its position at a river delta [presumably with fertile alluvium deposits] but the City probably expanded and took over such land. The fact that the City is importing basic foodstuffs, implies, I think, that they cannot grow their own. Admittedly, the "greens and meats" might be luxury items, but why then would Hammers be discussing them?
Sneaksie Thiefsie
