Mapping out The City.

Richard on 1/9/2001 at 14:30

<IMG SRC="joker.gif" border="0"> Merry fun this is -

Actually, from moving around the Thief world, it does rather look like they're used thus, Grund. <IMG SRC="thumb.gif" border="0">

Naturally forming crystals usually take some time to develop, sometimes decades and milenia, yet we have found them in bathtubs and even the barracks sinks in Shoalsgate Station.

This of course doesn't mean they aren't naturally forming, it just seems logical that they are there for a reason, like purifying the water. Water crystals appear to cost a fair amount of money, so it makes sense that they appear mostly in nobles' bathtubs and such - a luxury and excess. Still, if this is so, what are they doing in humble barracks sinks? I find it somewhat hard to believe that water crystals, if they are valuable, can form overnight in the police lavatory... <IMG SRC="erm.gif" border="0">

However, there were several racks of water arrows in Shoalsgate Station, which suggests that the City Watch had procured a large amount of them - since the many members of the City Watch are former criminals and troublemakers, I wouldn't put it past them to flinch a few and waste them on giving their hands a good clean... They'd have to be pretty thick to waste valuable gems on hand-washing, but then a lot of them sound and act pretty thick anyway...

All speculation of course. The main piont is though, crystals seem to have 'practical functions in the domestic environment' as it where. Since we spend most of our times in rich noble homes and religious temples, we can assume that they are expensive tools.

Consider - water crystals in bathtubs, moss arrows in flower pots, gas arrow in greenhouse, fire arrow in fireplace. Unless these crystals CAN literally form overnight, I think it's quit safe to assume that they are being used for purification, cultivation and combustion. Since they are also found in wild plant matter, and rivers etc. they probably do form naturally under these conditions, but I doubt crystals would have formed in regulary maintained gardens, bathing facilities, or even the Soulforge water troffs... the way in which the gas arrow is lying next to the book and several garden implements in the Angelwatch mission suggests to me it was going to be used for something.

...next round...
:D

[ September 01, 2001: Message edited by: Silencer ]

Grundbegriff on 1/9/2001 at 23:33

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Originally posted by Silencer:
Naturally forming crystals usually take some time to develop, sometimes decades and milenia

In which universe? It seems to me that every time we encounter a crystal in water in the City, we encounter primary evidence that crystals form rather quickly in the City's universe. ;)

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yet we have found them in bathtubs and even the barracks sinks in Shoalsgate Station.

If water crystals were only found in the sinks and basins of citizens, then perhaps you'd have a point. But we also find crystals in bodies of water encountered in non-domestic environments. Unless you're suggesting that someone (the crystal fairy?) goes around dropping "cleansing crystals" into puddles and ponds, you'll have to acknowledge that our finding crystals both in sinks and in natural puddles tells strongly against your theory. Indeed, the fact that crystals appear both in domestic collections of water and in natural collections strongly indicates that the common link isn't domestic sanitation but standing water.

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it just seems logical that they are there for a reason, like purifying the water.

On the contrary, to observe crystals in domestic cisterns and in natural puddles and then to infer that someone must have put the crystals in the cisterns (but not the ponds) is quite illogical.

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crystals seem to have 'practical functions in the domestic environment' as it where.

There isn't a whit of evidence to support that claim. All we have are crystals in bodies of water, some domestic and some wild.

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Consider - water crystals in bathtubs, moss arrows in flower pots, gas arrow in greenhouse, fire arrow in fireplace. Unless these crystals CAN literally form overnight

Why would we have to infer that they form overnight. Is there some mission in which Garrett visits a locale, removes the crystals, returns the next day, and finds crystals in the same place?

Besides, the fact that moss forms on flower pots suggests a natural process. Indeed, we even find moss arrows forming on the wedge of cheese in Constantine's lair. Would you seriously suggest that moss crystals were hung on the wedge of cheese to preserve it?

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, I think it's quit safe to assume that they are being used for purification, cultivation and combustion.

Sure, it's safe to assume such; many similarly faulty and fallacious assumptions are relatively harmless ;)

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Since they are also found in wild plant matter, and rivers etc. they probably do form naturally under these conditions, but I doubt crystals would have formed in regulary maintained gardens, bathing facilities, or even the Soulforge water troffs

Why do you doubt it, when you've now gone and conceded that crystals form naturally in their respective and suitable environments?

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... the way in which the gas arrow is lying next to the book and several garden implements in the Angelwatch mission suggests to me it was going to be used for something.

Of course. The fact that crystals form naturally doesn't mean that every crystal we encounter has formed naturally where we encounter it. The very fact that there's a market for crystals indicates that we're likely to find some that have been placed. But for any given crystal, we should assume by default that it grew in situ unless there's some clear indication to the contrary -- such as the presence of a crystal in an inappropriate environment (e.g., a fire crystal found not in a firepit but on a shelf probably didn't form naturally on the shelf).

Cheers,

G.

Valentin on 2/9/2001 at 03:20

The strange part of this is that I think both arguements are valid - the crystals could be formed as part of a natural process (most likely brought on by standing primal magical forces), harvested by people, and sold as domestic aids.

It isn't unfeasable to think that an alchemist or other interested party could attempt to standardize the creation of these crystals (much in the same vein as attempting to create other substances...), thus ensuring a profitable business by creating the proper conditions for their forming, whatever that may be.

.v.

Richard on 2/9/2001 at 12:53

What I was trying to say is that we probably BOTH right. I think the crystals DO form naturally in ponds and bodies of water - but I also think that they're likely to be used domestically. My interpretation is that these crystals form in caves, ponds, even on food and so forth and are then harvested and sold for high prices. Using crystals in their homes would be another way for them to flaunt their wealth.

The reason I don't think it likely that water crystals form in bathtubs and sinks is this - you commented on Garret coming back overnight and finding renewed crystals. That never happens, but remember these are HOMES. If the crystals are valuable, I don't think people would just leave them their for the taking - unless we make the assumption that large numbers of crystals just happen to complete formation on the night Garret arrives. Remember the baths and sinks have probably been used a few hours before Garret goes to work. And what happens when they're cleaned or the water is changed? Surely any infant crystal-matter gets dumped into the sewers?

The other problem is this - if they form so easily, I can't see how they would be particulary valuable. Think about it, anyone with a decent bathtub could start up a water crystal factory :P

So my take on it is this, ultimately - the crystals form, perhaps quite quickly but not overnight, in natural and occasionally unnatural environs. They are harvested and sold for high prices and used by the wealthy in homes - however they are also available on the black market for use in more sinister purposes.

This is how I read it, because I think their must be some use for crystals other than weapons - they're just too numerous for The City's population not to have taken advantage of them. We find them in racks around Shoalsgate - they must be used for SOMETHING. I didn't get the impression that they had taken on the role of fire service as well.

But anyway, I really think we're straying from the point - crystals don't have much to do with mapping out The City.

Personally I'd really like to see a well-drawn map (Thief style on parchment)...

Richard on 2/9/2001 at 13:23

Arg - looking back over the posts I think we're just saying the same thing over and over again. Let's just try to close this arguement :-

Theory 1 (Grund): Crystals form in the right conditions and can do so relatively freely within a domestic environment. They are not used in domestic purposes. All crystals found have grown and not been placed there, unless found on a shelf etc.

Theory 2 (Me): Crystals form in the right conditions and can occasionally do so in the domestic environment. They are used in domestic purposes. Many crystals found are there because they are being used for domestic purposes, while a few have formed naturally within the domestic environment.

Now the reason I think No 1 unlikely is this ::

Lets take one humble sink in a home. It is filled with water. We assume that water crystals must take at the least a few days to form.

To begin with, for a crystal to form, the water would have to remain unchanged, or the sink at least uncleaned. Crystal matter could remain in the bottom of the sink when the water drains or is changed, but if it was cleaned it would be wiped away.

If the sink is used regulary, then any forming crystal must eventually be noticed - surely, if they valuable they will be removed? Water crystals are quite large, and the servants or users would have to be blind not to spot them in a later stage of development.

So if we assume they have formed naturally in a sink or bath, we also have to assume that either a) everyone who uses them needs their eyes checked or b) they must not be worth much at all - in which case you wouldn't buy them on the blackmarket. If they were of any value, servants would either nick them for a side profit or the family would store them.

Now, Theory 2 is a lot more plausible from my point of view (of course I'm prejudiced since it's mine...) Consider ::

Servants and homeowners aren't as thick as they appear in theory one. Wealthy families buy them at high prices as a luxury. Water seems to be left standing overnight often in the Thief world, so purification from dirt and the like might be required. Using this theory, it makes perfect sense for Garret to find them regualry in loos and baths, and it also grants The City's civilian population an IQ higher than that of a toddler. It also doesn't get in the way of the formation theory at all - they still form in nature and are harvested.

I can believe a fire crystal might form in lava or fire - I can believe a moss arrow might form in a plant pot or soil - I believe a water arrow could form in industrial water sources and natural water bodies. But the servants would have to be downright thick to leave valuable gems in bathtubs and basins UNLESS THEY PUT THEM THERE THEMSELVES FOR A PURPOSE.

...next round...

:cool:

Digital Nightfall on 2/9/2001 at 13:36

The problem, as said, is that one of you likes inductive reasoning (let's see what we can infer!) and the other likes deductive reasoning (just the fact's ma`am!). That's why you're just going around and around in circles, and cannot agree. ;) Your respective arguments are perfectly sound in regards to the methods you used to derive them.

Grundbegriff already kinda said that, in more words.

It's good reading, though. :)

CyberFish on 2/9/2001 at 14:58

So, why is there an air crystal floating half way up Long Tom's Wall (or something) at the start of Precious Cargo? However, I think the theory about water crystals being used for water purification is sensible. If they formed so easily as to be in every handbaisin in the City, you wouldn't be paying 50 gold each for them. It is possible that the crystals are used to purify water, but don't run out and don't need replacing. This explains why even poor people can use them. Perhaps, since purified water is something of a necessity, the Baron has arranged for the poorer part of the population to be given a small number of water crystals, paid for out of the city taxes, to prevent disease. Goodness knows why you find them in ponds, though.

If water crystals are a natural occurence rather than a supernatural (magical) one, it is quite possible that they are porous, crystalline mineral clusters that form natuarally in pools of standing water under certain conditions. The alternative is that they are formed by natural magic. When Garrett uses them, they shatter and release the water they had been holding. When immersed in a pool of water, they steadily absorb and release water, leaving impurities trapped in the body of the crystal, thus purifying the water.

The other crystal types are more puzzling. Earth crystals are possible the spore form of a certain type of moss. Fire arrows could be a combinations of crystals and minerals that ignites vigourously when struck, like some unstable explosives. No idea how it would occur naturally, though. Gas arrows are the wierdest of the lot. Not because of their behaviour, but because of the places they are found.

I suspect that the Elemental Crystals are formed as a direct result of natural magic. This is partly because there were so many of them in the Maw of Chaos, which was an area of greatly concentrated natural magic.

Oh, and I think the corpses in the hidden compartment in Eavesdropping were the results of failed experiments.

Grundbegriff on 2/9/2001 at 17:22

For the entire period covered by Thief I and Thief II, the City is suffering under a drought. How likely is it, under such conditions, that residents would empty basins daily? How likely is it that they'd leave water standing for later use?

Suppose residents require purified water for drinking. How likely is it that they'd purify the water with expensive water crystals? How likely is it that they'd simply boil the water?

Suppose residents require water for other purposes besides drinking. How likely is it that they'd purify such water at all?

Grundbegriff on 2/9/2001 at 17:47

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Originally posted by Digital Nightfall:
The problem, as said, is that one of you likes inductive reasoning (let's see what we can infer!) and the other likes deductive reasoning (just the fact's ma`am!).

The difference between deductive argument and inductive argument is that in the former the conclusion certainly follows from the conjoined premises, while in the latter the conclusion probably (but not certainly) follows from the conjoined premises.

Most of the reasoning we've undertaken has involved a combination of inductive inferences (from observations in the game world) and deductive inferences (from granted or established premises).

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That's why you're just going around and around in circles, and cannot agree.

Your diagnosis depends on your definitions, and your definitions are mistaken ;)

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Your respective arguments are perfectly sound in regards to the methods you used to derive them.

Nice try, Digi, but that's not what's happening here. Rather, we're both trying to reason inductively from the observation that water crystals are sometimes found in basins and bathtubs.

Anyhow, it seems to me that if crystals are in basins because they were put there rather than because they formed there, there's still no basis at all to think that they're being put to "domestic use" as cleansing agents or otherwise. Rather, if the crystals were put there on purpose, it would probably be to store portable water supplies during the drought.

The relevance of the drought isn't a new point; I mentioned it much earlier in the thread but it still doesn't enter into the (inductive!) reasoning of those who wish to regard found crystals as flush tablets.

[ September 02, 2001: Message edited by: Grundbegriff ]

Grundbegriff on 2/9/2001 at 18:01

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Originally posted by CyberFish:
I think the theory about water crystals being used for water purification is sensible.

With respect, I can't see why. There's no evidence at all that crystals of any sort have any purifying effects at all. What we do know is that water crystals (in particular) consist of a fragile crystalline shell that contains a splash of water. If the crystals were put into basins deliberately during a time of drought, surely it would be to store them for later use rather than to expend them (during a drought!) as cleansing agents (where simple boiling would suffice).

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If they formed so easily as to be in every handbaisin in the City, you wouldn't be paying 50 gold each for them.

That doesn't necessarily follow. First, 50 gold is only twice the cost of a broadhead arrow -- a carefully whittled and fletched stick. Second, how much to people pay for gallon jugs of "purified water" in supermarkets today? And what is the profit margin? ;)

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It is possible that the crystals are used to purify water, but don't run out and don't need replacing.

Evidence, please?

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since purified water is something of a necessity, the Baron has arranged for the poorer part of the population to be given a small number of water crystals

See how the imagination spins out of control? :) A water-crystal welfare state? During a time of war and drought? Why shouldn't the poor simply boil their water?

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Goodness knows why you find them in ponds, though.

Perhaps because they...formed there?

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I suspect that the Elemental Crystals are formed as a direct result of natural magic.

I agree.

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Oh, and I think the corpses in the hidden compartment in Eavesdropping were the results of failed experiments.

But by the time Garrett visits the Eastport Mechanist Seminary, the technology of mask-application has already been refined -- as Karras demonstrates during the overheard conversation. No, these bodies seem to be prepped for masking.