Nameless Voice on 31/1/2019 at 14:16
My first thought on reading Thirith's post was "Infra". My first thought on seeing henke post a game link was "that better be Infra".
I was not disappointed. It was Infra.
Renault on 31/1/2019 at 18:50
Kind of piggy backing on what Thirith said in the OP, but I always wanted an open world walking sim. Something as big as Skyrim or one of the Far Crys. I really want vast distances to travel but where the pace is casual and you can explore at your leisure and go whatever direction you choose. That said, it would have to possess some other characteristic to provide at least a minimal challenge - I'm not really interested in a Dear Esther type thing. Some possibilities:
Stealth (ala (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/223510/Miasmata/) Miasmata). I like the idea of a AI that occasionally shows up and that you can only avoid and not defeat, at least not until later in the game).
Puzzles (something like (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/251110/INFRA/) Infra or (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/306760/Obduction/) Obduction).
Mapping/Cartography (again, Miasmata).
Crafting (Like in (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/313630/The_Solus_Project/) Solus Project or (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/264710/Subnautica/) Subnautica, but without the survival aspect, which intoduces a level of urgency that I'd want to avoid).
At one point, I hoped (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/293480/FRONTIERS/) Frontiers was the game I was looking for, but it died for some reason.
Anyway, I doubt a game like this would ever get made. It would require extensive resources and budget to make an open world game, and I don't this type of open world would appeal to enough gamers.
N'Al on 31/1/2019 at 19:35
Quote Posted by Thirith
What kind of game types, genres and subgenres would you like to see that either don't exist yet or haven't really been done nearly enough?
I'm thinking that I would like to see the
immersive walking sim. I like exploring virtual spaces, I like environmental storytelling, but I don't always want antagonists, fail states or overt challenge - so I'm thinking e.g. of a game based on urban exploration of deserted spaces where... stuff happened.
Gone Home mixed with
Deus Ex and
Mirror's Edge. There don't need to be monsters, zombies, security guards or other explorers waiting to whack you over the head with their flashlights. Bring more interesting traversal options to the walking sim and let us find various ways to get into that building or that room. You might find a key or a brick or something you can use as a makeshift crowbar, though you may prefer to leave these spaces undamaged in their state of ruin.
Let me flip this round; an im sim where your primary mode of locomotion is NOT on foot. Where it's all about a car*, a sub, a space cruiser. Where you're a worm, a bird, a plant, a planet, I dunno.
*Just remake Quarantine as an im sim, thnx.
Starker on 31/1/2019 at 20:00
Quote Posted by demagogue
Ok, then the second sub-genre I made I'd describe as a grand strategy game, but at the level of a city. And the vehicle for this game was French Revolution Paris. Basically it's a simulation of the French Revolution happening in Paris, or more like 19th Century Paris simulator since the game is more about the aftermath of the revolution. You can select to be any kind of character in the city living through the revolution and afterwards.. It's kind of a sandbox, but basically you want to climb the ranks of whatever your position is... If you're a priest, you want to become Bishop (and stay alive), if you're a merchant/farmer you want to become the largest property/landholder (and stay alive), if you're just some street urchin, then you want to either build a criminal enterprise or be a revolutionary leader of some san culottes gang. But the best game to play is of course vying to be the leader of a new regime, either leader of a commune, or king in a restoration, or you're military and you politic your way to be emperor (Napoleon like; by the way England and Austria have a good chance of invading the city, so military has something to do, like Paris is a microcosm of all of France), or you're a Robespierre like character trying to be de facto leader of the revolution (and stay alive)... Most of the population are spawned pawns (like GTA), but about 100 or 200 characters are more like NPCs that are competing for the same positions you are (like Crusader Kings), and I like the idea of making it multiplayer too, so you can compete with other humans as well as NPCs to be the next ruler (Bishop, biggest landowner, etc, etc) of France. You can get yourself elected to one of the three estates by getting majority support within your district's respective estate. And then it uses the famous 1739 map of Paris, where literally every building is hand drawn in. You could also just explore the city doing little side quests or random goals (make a living as a barber or winery in some random neighborhood) too.
It's not grand strategy and there's no huge open world, but Europa 1400: The Guild basically does the advancing in your profession thing.
Quote Posted by Brethren
Kind of piggy backing on what Thirith said in the OP, but I always wanted an open world walking sim. Something as big as Skyrim or one of the Far Crys. I really want vast distances to travel but where the pace is casual and you can explore at your leisure and go whatever direction you choose. That said, it would have to possess some other characteristic to provide at least a minimal challenge - I'm not really interested in a Dear Esther type thing. Some possibilities:
Stealth (ala (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/223510/Miasmata/) Miasmata). I like the idea of a AI that occasionally shows up and that you can only avoid and not defeat, at least not until later in the game).
Puzzles (something like (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/251110/INFRA/) Infra or (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/306760/Obduction/) Obduction).
Mapping/Cartography (again, Miasmata).
Crafting (Like in (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/313630/The_Solus_Project/) Solus Project or (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/264710/Subnautica/) Subnautica, but without the survival aspect, which intoduces a level of urgency that I'd want to avoid).
At one point, I hoped (
https://store.steampowered.com/app/293480/FRONTIERS/) Frontiers was the game I was looking for, but it died for some reason.
Anyway, I doubt a game like this would ever get made. It would require extensive resources and budget to make an open world game, and I don't this type of open world would appeal to enough gamers.
So... No Man's Sky with hand-crafted content?
Also, a shame about Frontiers, I was looking forward to that one as well.
Nameless Voice on 31/1/2019 at 23:37
There's one I've been thinking about: a real-time tactical stealth-RPG.
A top down view in the vein of games like Commandos / Desperados / Shadow Tactics, except that you have full RPG stats.
You can take down enemies by stealth, or fight them directly in real-time combat. You can level your characters with skills to complement stealth and misdirection, with combat skills, or with a combination of both.
The combat in the game would be very challenging, forcing you to sneak past foes until you can face them in combat, take out enemies from stealth, or luring enemies away to kill them one at a time.
Yes, this is based on my favourite obscure Russian game, Evil Islands, but I don't know of any other games like it.
It's a game that I've been toying with the idea of making myself, and I've written down some notes on the concept, but it's not something I'm currently working on.
demagogue on 1/2/2019 at 02:45
What Brethern mentioned is a similar thinking I've had as well... Probably a lot of people of our ilk would like that kind of game.
I've mentioned Empyrion before as the open world alien planet sim... It's technically survival but it's relatively low key & forgiving survival, so you're relatively free to just explore & build for the most part. It's still a bit awkward and unpolished, but it's doing better than the major alternatives.
One of my ideas would be basically a Minecraft variant with a Skyrim-like world, voxelized so it's deformable and you can craft & build openly on it, and then fans could build adventure maps out of it, like Minecraft adventures but a bit more mature, so you can have story and open world coming together.
froghawk on 1/2/2019 at 03:01
demagogue is brilliant. I wish all those games existed.
Sulphur on 1/2/2019 at 07:35
I remember it. It's a good first step, and Human Fall Flat's co-op showed how far the idea could go.
RE: the storyline more of a web than linear concept, what would you do to implement narrative pacing? Create an act structure, say phased hub-and-spoke design with logically blocked-off points that await progression from the central hub (that is, the core story)? Or would it be more free-form and up to the player to find their own pace?
demagogue on 1/2/2019 at 10:33
First, I tried to write a (
http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Story_and_Plot_Design) tutorial on plot design for TDM FMs with some of these ideas, and it answers some of your question. (I should really get around to finishing it up.) It says it's for TDM FMs, but it's basically applicable to immersive sims generally.
To summarize, there are different options. A hub-and-spoke model is definitely one option. Another one I mentioned was a spider web; you're on the edge and need to make your way to the center. But there are a number of different independent routes you can take freely, paths down one link open up links to new nodes on other sides, and you can go in any order at your own pace. I think those were the two basic models I talked about. (Practically they're both variations on the same basic idea, and you can apply it at different levels of scale, for a corridor, a building, a level, or across the whole game.)
What I like is the idea you can tell a story in different orders, and the full plot emerges by the time you reach the center. But you can get big revelations in different orders, and they may have different impacts depending on if you knew A before B or B before A. But everybody gets A & B by the end (and possibly some really minor elements are hidden about as optional flavor some players find and other players miss to reward exploration). Obra Dinn had that potential, but it didn't execute it as well as it could as the release of information & revelations was still railroaded into a sequence for the most part (even if the sequence wasn't temporally linear; the sequence of revelations was still linear-ish in practice just by its design).
Sulphur on 1/2/2019 at 14:10
Nice! I read through that and I agree, you should finish it. Some good explanations of the fundamental nature of mission design in there.
I can see both models working, though my preference is for a more modulated approach in terms of naturally blocking off progress until the player moves the story forward. The spiderweb design would seem more organic, but I'd be slightly constrained by the design being predicated on the fact that wherever you start from the outside, that individual thread will need to move you towards the same central outcome. It would take some talent (and the right kind of story/setting) to make each individual strand seamless and non-contrived to the player; which is to say, a fair bit of work, and I'm a lazy git. :D
