SubJeff on 3/5/2005 at 05:07
Errr, don't tell me what my definition of a fix is thanks. Bug hunting is one thing, fixing a borked gameplay device is quite different.
So you thought the omission of rope arrows wasn't explicitly bad? Or that leaning being a sidestep that makes you step of ledges was not a bad idea?
Anyway, who cares what you think. The evidence is here - people ARE wanting to change things back to a T1/2 style. And calling it altering to suit someone's point of view IS pussyfooting around it. If you look at (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95903) this thread you'll see that half of those changes are towards a T1/2 style. The keeper assassin thread is the same. This thread is the same. The flashbomb thread is the same. Overall requests have been made for these:
Flashbombs that blind Garrett
Flashbombs that allow KO when BJed during blindness
Rope arrows
Swimmable water
Inventory lockpicks
Inventory keys
Reducing lootglint
Edible food (doesn't DO anything ffs but people want it!)
Bringing back robots
Making elemental creatures
Related: Keeper Assassin remake to a more Equilbrium style Keeper
Denying it is like getting a list of meat and vegetables and going "it's only related to food from YOUR point of view". Whatever.
Maximius on 3/5/2005 at 06:49
Quote Posted by Orkin Man
People like ZylonBane complaining all the time doesn't change one simple fact...this is the real world, and in the real world it takes alot of time and money to make a game. Thief III's projected sales didn't justify a larger budget, so ISA had to make do with what they could get, and personally, I think ISA did an excellent job with what they were given...
Then why were the first two Thief games so damn good? With crappier graphics and AIs so stiff they look like mannequins, T1 and T2 still managed to scare, thrill, wow, whatever me more than TDS. Why did little, broke ass LGS manage to blow away the much better resourced ISA in this real world of yours? Hell, most of the FMs were of a higher quality of immersion.
The consolization was an attempt to bring a game to the general public that would NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS appeal to the general public. ISAs devs did an excellent job, there are beautiful things in this game, and I thank them for their work. Im really glad some of them are members here to help us learn more. But lets face the facts, TDS was an attempt to capitalize on a cult favorite and turn it into a McVideoGame. This attempt was doubtless dreamt up in a room full of suits somewhere, far from the computer labs where the real work is done. But that attempt bombed because it missed both targets, the cult community tore it to bits and the console community,well if I remember correctly their versions of TDS were loaded with fatal bugs. Guess those budget constraints didnt allow for working console releases. Funny, when teeny tiny little LGS put out their games in this Real World We All Have To Deal With, they frigging worked.
P.S. I know this is the way the world "works." Lets just stop pretending that its a good way to make video games, or anything else for that matter.
Orkin Man on 3/5/2005 at 07:02
And at the time of Thief 1's creation LGS wasn't pressured to release Thief for two platforms at once by Eidos...were they?
It was a different world back then. It used to be that hobbyist programmers could make games as high-quality as development companies (rare, but it did happen). Now it takes whole teams of programmers, level editors, texture artists, composers, sound designers, etc., to even come close to the level of complexity and detail that gamers demand.
If ISA didn't have to worry about the XBox I think you would have been just as scared, thrilled, and wowed by TDS...
Maximius on 3/5/2005 at 07:04
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Flashbombs that blind Garrett
Flashbombs that allow KO when BJed during blindness
Rope arrows
Swimmable water
Inventory lockpicks
Inventory keys
Reducing lootglint
Edible food (doesn't DO anything ffs but people want it!)
Bringing back robots
Making elemental creatures
Related: Keeper Assassin remake to a more Equilbrium style Keeper
If I may humbly submit:
Scouting Orbs, despite what ZylonBane has said.
Potions of speed, inviso, slowfall
Blessed water arrows
burricks of all known subspecies
Vampires
racial diversity
sexual diversity in the workplace, i.e. guards and hammers, though I did overhere a female thug comment the other night "Never see any women in a hammer uniform, pigs all of em!"
zombies that sound like zombies, not zombies with the sniffles who mewl like old women
Maximius on 3/5/2005 at 08:12
Orkin, I too blame Eidos for the flaws of TDS, not ISA. Perhaps Zylonbane should be more conscientious about assigning actual blame but his criticisms are still correct IMO. My point to you was that to tell ZylonBane that this is how the "real world" works without further comment takes Eidos right back off the hook. Another way of saying it: Rather than pointing out to Zylon that this is how things work, lets be honest and say this is why things DONT work. Sure, LGS had a freer hand than ISA. Why, because Eidos was sliming around with its own plans that had nothing to do with Thiefing. we all agree. good, now lets call it what it is, mass commercialization of a special game with no regard for its creators or deep fan base. This is how the world +fails+ to work.
And I do not think that TDS would have been a zillion times greater had ISA been given six more months. Time was only one factor, autonomy is another. Not that ISA devs wouldnt have made a million improvements to the game in that time, but Eidos would have still demanded nuclear loot glint,tracer arrows, craploads of resources, more flash and less creep, because they wanted to straddle two markets and fuck em both.
New Horizon on 3/5/2005 at 11:32
Greed...often rationalized by the greedy as sustaining profitability.
ZylonBane on 3/5/2005 at 13:56
Criminy. I make one little observation, and everyone flies off the handle.
rujuro on 3/5/2005 at 14:37
Just to address two quick points:
Yes, the omission of rope arrows was bad, but a quick look in the editor shows that that was not a choice they had any control over. They clearly wanted them in, but a lack of time made it impossible to implement properly. It's not like they said, "This game will be better without rope arrows, let's remove them".
And yes the lean was bad, but that was the exact decision I mentioned, which is tying third person to first person. Had they been treated separately the lean could have been handled MUCH better.
Finally, I'm glad you don't care what I think. I merely pointed out that what you consider a fix is completely subjective (a concept you must be familiar with given your name), and therefore a customization. Most of what you list isn't broken gameplay, just things you don't like. Which is absolutely fine.
From now on I will make a note to not comment in these threads, people get so worked up.
Maximius on 3/5/2005 at 15:06
Orkin, Im sorry if I seemed a little flamey, please dont take it to heart. Upon review of last nights posts, I realize I was coming off as a little too,err, passionate. Blame it on the late hour, and an old party buddy from the mountainous regions of Afghanistan that was visiting. :cool:
But I must admit it does get me fired up. I work in museum education, and a very similar effect is poisoning that world as well. Institutions are pushed for cash, they hire hot-dog marketing/ad teams to bring them into the "modern age", the first thing they do is lay off all the highly trained interpreters and guides, double the marketing/ad budgets, install a bunch of talking boxes and "interactive" video screens, the education dries up real fast, suddenly you are shuffling people through an amusement park. The customers complain about how great the place "used" to be, the talented artists, writers, guides, educators, etc. drift off disillusioned, and the suits chatter away upstairs and compare their stock options.
Orkin Man on 3/5/2005 at 15:38
Maximius: I think we're really in agreement here, we just didn't state it in the same way. I'm not saying that the current state of the gaming industry is a good thing, or it's how it should be. On the contrary, the publishers are getting more and more control of the developers, and pressuring them to make the kind of game the marketing peeps *think* will sell well, stifling creativity and keeping alot of games from living up to their potential.
My point was, as unfortunate as it is, this is the reality we live in. ISA did their best considering the conditions they were under, and complaining about it doesn't help anything at this point.
The only hope I see for the future of the gaming industry is for more developers to follow in Valve's footsteps. Although I'm not sure Steam is the way to go, they've freed themselves from the publishers. And you've gotta give them props for that!
