Looking for the iceberg theory

all on 23/6/2010 at 12:17

I must have read it at least once, and about it a million times. But as of now I can't remember in which book Sigmund Freud wrote of his iceberg theory. I vaguely remember a schema illustrating his theory as well. I'm guessing it was in his Interpretation of Dreams or earlier, but I simply can't find it to save my life. Can anyone please help?

Thanks!

Thirith on 23/6/2010 at 12:27

Wikipedia's pretty good on Freud. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Id.2C_ego.2C_and_super-ego) Check this link - it's very likely Freud spoke of the iceberg in connection to id, ego and super-ego.

Matthew on 23/6/2010 at 12:28

Are you sure it was that early? I don't think he came up with several sections that were used in the topographical model until Beyond the Pleasure Principle and Ego and Id - though I am no expert on his work, so I'm not sure if the topographical model came earlier and was revised later.

all on 23/6/2010 at 12:38

Quote Posted by Thirith

Wikipedia's pretty good on Freud.

The problem with Wikipedia is that it doesn't give the source for the iceberg schema.

Quote Posted by Matthew

Are you sure it was that early?

No, I'm not sure at all... :rolleyes:

I'm skimming through the pages of Interpretation of Dreams, Beyond the Pleasure Principle and The Ego and the Id, but I've got the feeling what I'm looking for is in another text altogether.

Namdrol on 23/6/2010 at 15:29

I was told that Freud himself never used the iceberg analogy for his topographical model.

The closest he came was - "...the unconscious must be assumed to be the general basis of psychical life. The unconscious is the larger sphere, which includes within it the smaller sphere of the conscious." (Interpretation of Dreams, VII.F.)

There were two diagrams done by Freud illustrating this model, the first in "The Ego and the Id (1923)"

Inline Image:

http://www.enotes.com/w/images/thumb/2/2e/Structural-Model1.png/200px-Structural-Model1.png

And the second in "New Introductory Lectures on Psychoanalysis (1933)"

Inline Image:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:NkzBtb7mIFJoTM:http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/04/24/science/freud.650.jpg

all on 23/6/2010 at 20:24

Thanks Namdrol. I found those already as well. I've heard that same thing about Freud not being the one who wrote about the iceberg, but I find it so hard to believe since that idea is practically associated to him on every other website (all right, I know that's not a good argument).

While I didn't completely read the three books I mentioned above (and I doubt I'll have the time to do so), I'm wondering if he didn't mention such an idea in some of his correspondences (with Fliess or Abraham, for example)... Or maybe someone else wrote it, like Georg Groddeck?

Thanks anyway; although I hope someone will show up with that reference I'm dreaming of. If anyone has any ideas, I'd be very grateful. I'd find it so odd if Freud or someone near him had never written about the iceberg after all...

all on 23/6/2010 at 22:36

For those who are interested...

(http://www.mail-archive.com/tips@acsun.frostburg.edu/msg17605.html) Just found this, which has more reliable references (though I wonder if they included the correspondences in their researches)...

I found this very interesting; kind of answers my questions. And there's more if you click on the arrows (the right arrow button goes forward)...

To sum up, there's "good" news and "bad" news.

Firstly the bad news: the problem isn't solved, and we don't really know who said it first, essentially because the courageous researchers don't understand German, and consequently based most of their research on finding the single word "Eisbergen" amidst a whole corpus written in language incomprehensible to them, apparently using Google translate from time to time. These researchers, following a note given by Ernest Jones in Freud's biography, attempt to learn if Gustav Fechner wasn't the first to use the analogy in a 1860 publication; but they finally weren't able to find it in Fechner's book (which incidentally was in German).

So according to this research, people who claim that Freud wrote anything concerning an iceberg theory haven't done their homework (or are at least distorting his work)... I think this is a good start, but because of the flawed methodology of this "research" my doubts still persist in a boiled down state.

The good news, however, is that despite this enormous flaw, the first appearance of the "iceberg theory" in English was possibly traced back to a quote from a guy named Gilbert Murray, dating back to October 1900 ((http://www.mail-archive.com/tips@acsun.frostburg.edu/msg17608.html) discussed on this page, and there's a link to JSTOR articles for those of you who, unlike me, are lucky enough to access them). Murray's article, then, was published during the same year as Freud's Interpretation of Dreams ... :cool: Plus, Murray quotes German philosopher Johann F. Herbart who according to wikipedia died in 1840, so he would have beaten Fechner's quote anyway... (I wonder why they didn't try to find Herbart's text instead of Fechner's)

Of course, there's always the possibility that earlier sources than Murray's exist, but I'm at least half satisfied (still open to suggestions, though).

Now I'm wondering if this kind of research correspondence ever occurred in German, since they would probably have had more luck going back up stream. I'm also wondering where I've heard "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" before...

Kolya on 24/6/2010 at 00:03

Freud, who is he? Is he a passenger?

Scots Taffer on 24/6/2010 at 00:30

Is the iceberg theory about fat people in swimming pools and be careful where you dive?