Bakerman on 17/5/2009 at 06:20
So how would you like lockpicking to be handled in Thiaf?
I am going to go out on a limb and say DS had the right idea. Some people say that the T1/T2 system required more skill.... um.... how?
It's true that DS only had a good idea - the execution was a little limp. The very cool mechanic boiled down to holding the pick at the right angle four times in a row, and when all those angles were too easily found, you just have a time-wasting mini-game. But that's not much more advanced than guessing which pick to use first, then switching when the lock stops opening.
I would have them go the DS route, but making it a bit more difficult and skill-based. For example, each lock that appears the same should be the same internally (I don't remember if DS did this). Also, the interaction shouldn't be GUI-based, you should have to watch Garrett's hands to get your cues for finding the sweet spot. (This also means you don't know how many tumblers a given lock will have; this increases the risk factor if you're picking the lock on a patrol route, and increases the payoff of remembering the internal structure of different locks.)
jay pettitt on 17/5/2009 at 09:38
Once I'd turned the HUD display off (there's a .ini file you can hack to hide it ~ T3UI.ini in the game's System folder: change the x,y and z scale of the LockPickHUDWindow section to 0) I really enjoyed lockpicking in Deadly Shadows - it becomes much more of a feel your way around with the mouse exercise like you describe, and a little uncertain - it's quite tense if you're trying to pick a lock before a guard returns.
which reminds me of a post The Blackman made a few days ago (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1854509#post1854509) singing the praises of shooting arrows at switches in T1 and T2. Doing without target reticules and computer aides and letting the player use a bit of hand/eye coordination and judgement is
very satisfying.
Petike the Taffer on 17/5/2009 at 20:50
TDS lockpicking all the way. The TDP and TMA one was good for it's time, but it's now completely outdated, simplistic and very boring.
The idea of improving the TDS-style lockpicking by droping the GUI sounds thrilling... :D
On the other hand, it can alienate greenhorn players, who'll just find it overly abstract and difficult.
And since my main requirement for Thief IV is the option to customize everything in the game's difficulty and realism settings according to the player's desire, I would vote for this to be one of the many optional things. Newbies and less experienced taffers will use the standard lockpicking visuals, pros and veteran fans will turn of the GUI and use the HUD-less visuals. There's no way this could dissapoint anybody.
Customization is the way. Choices are the way. The only restriction in the game should be keeping the focus on stealth, stealth and stealth.
Myagi on 17/5/2009 at 21:15
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
Once I'd turned the HUD display off
without the HUD I also enjoyed it, for a little added challenge I think it could have been interesting to try a hybrid, meaning you have two different tools you have to switch between but still working like DS (without HUD).
SubJeff on 17/5/2009 at 22:51
With or without the HUD you could just use the direction keys and any lock would be open in 1/2 the time of any lock in T1 and 2.
The problem with TDS lockpicking is there were only 4 spots. If it had been as complex as it first seemed - it looked like the pick could be moved a variable distance - it would have been great. Thats what they need to do for Thief 4 - add some skill requirement to it.
Stath MIA on 18/5/2009 at 00:55
@SE- If I remember correctly, which I might not, there was one door which used diagonals to open.
Anywho, I wholeheartedly agree that TDS lockpicking was a step up, but it was an epic failure in that, once you figured it out, it was even more ridiculously easy to use. Removing the HUD is the way to go, but leave it in as an option for noobs, and use varying angles to make it really realistic..
gunsmoke on 18/5/2009 at 01:24
There were most certainly 8 directions, and in more than one lock for sure.
belboz on 18/5/2009 at 03:10
well a basic lockpicking set has about 6 picks and something to keep the lock turned while you pick the pins, a more advanced set has about 12 picks, while most locksmiths use a ratchet gun, which you just stick in the lock, turn it, then repeatedly fire the ratches which rakes the pins till they open.
Although medieval locks as far as remember didn't use pins they used latches, pin locks are rather modern.
Renault on 18/5/2009 at 03:58
Thief 1/2 had a more [url=http://whoopdedo.org/doku/dromed/advpickcfg?s[]=lockpick]advanced lockpicking system that was rarely implemented in FMs (and never in OMs, I believe). Something like this would definitely provide a bit more of a challenge and also some variety.
Taffer36 on 18/5/2009 at 04:18
I said this elsewhere but I'll repeat it here.
The Thief 1 and Thief 2 lockpicking systems didn't require any player skill, but that wasn't the point. The point is that it takes time. What I didn't like about the TDS system was that it took the player out of the world to focus on the minigame. In Thief 1 and 2, the player is still in the middle of everything, and the fact that they're simply holding down a button or whatnot keeps them focused on their surroundings.
The chief problem with Thief 1 and 2 was that they mostly had you pick locks in safe places. There's no point doing it in the shadows or around no patrols, because then all suspense is lost. Having to run up to a door and quickly pick it before a guard comes back around in their patrol is much more immersive and adrenaline-inducing.
IMO, a good system would be somewhat of a mix. I don't think the camera should zoom into the lock like in TDS, because the player should still be focused on the world. Instead, when they hold right mouse to frob it, they can still look around (to assess threats or to watch for enemy patrols), but now W, A, S, and D jiggle the pick around. Then it's simply a game of jiggling it around and listening purely to sound cues until it unlocks. Audio = lockpicking, visual = world. This way the player is still half aware of the world around them. When they see an enemy approach, they simply release right mouse button and all control is given back to them to run away.