Qooper on 23/12/2006 at 16:33
I probably should've put a warning on the thread title, warning about the story ahead. Yep, it's a story of my life. On campus. About education. Maybe I should use spoler tags :p
It was my lifelong dream to get accepted to a university here in Finland and begin studying computer science. I love programming. I'd finally be able to study that which I love. What a dream thing to do! Everyone thinks about this sort of thing, am I correct?
Well, very nice. After having performed my duties to my country, I began my studies in the university of Turku in september 2006. It didn't quite meet up to my expectations.
"What's this thing about not having a choice on what area of programming to study? What's that? You don't offer game programming courses?"
Yea, game programming. It wasn't until a few weeks after I had started stuying that I realized it wasn't just any kind of programming I wanted to study. It was specifically game programming. And I can't believe they use Java as their main language for teaching. I dislike Java! I'm more of a C/C++ guy like everyone else who programs games. Needless to say, there is not a single bit of motivation left in me. I'm looking at other universities right now, but it seems Finland just doesn't have the resources to offer that kind of teaching.
My search led me to the universities in UK, namely the universities of Bristol and Derby. Bristol, because a friend of mine studies there, and Derby, because I found it by chance. They teach game programming in both.
Also, there's this one absolutely marvellous institute of technology in America, called Digipen. It's in Washington. Have you guys heard of it? It specializes in computer games. They teach 3d-modelling, game programming and even robotics. I'm very excited about it, but the tuition fees are rather high. BSc in real-time interactive simulation (4 years) would be 83000$. Compared to studying here in Finland (which is free), it's infinitely expensive.
Anyone who knows about stydying in UK or US, does it help to get in to a university if you already have completed some courses? Or are they just going to take a look at your highschool grades? Can you tell me anything about the entrance exams?
Vivian on 23/12/2006 at 17:13
I recommend Bristol - theres great nightlife if you know where to look (its still pretty good even if you dont), a sometimes suprisingly good local band scene, a good and well-funded university, and some lovely bits of natural beauty within walking distance. And cider, theres also cider. I wouldn't go to Derby, its pretty dull.
I went to Bristol, and I am pretty sure I would not have been accepted had I not already done part of a marine biology course at Southampton - my A-Level grades were below the minimum for the course I wanted - but the fact I had already passed some units well at degree level made me, I think, seem a better candidate than someone who had just done A-Levels. So yeah, I think it will definitely help your case if you already have some university behind you, but they will want to know why you are dropping out of your old institution (although in your case you have a pretty solid reason).
doctorfrog on 23/12/2006 at 19:42
So you want to disregard your paid-for education and move to another country? Go to a bookstore and get a C++ book. Java will at least give you the fundamentals of programming and a skillset you can use to get a job and learn more. Or get a loan and go to a non-state college. If your aspirations really are to get to the UK, US, or some other country, having existing programming skills can put you in touch with a company who might sponsor your visa, though at least around here (Silicon Valley) there's less of that happening these days.
Agent Monkeysee on 23/12/2006 at 21:10
How can you be a C/C++ guy if you're going to school to learn programming? If you know enough about it that you're actually a "[language] guy" then you should be fairly proficient.
Java and C++ are so similar in syntax I can't imagine disliking one enough to quit school and seek out a program that teaches the other.
And if you *are* starting out Java is a better teaching language as you don't have to get bogged down in the ugly details of memory management and pointer hell.
Vigil on 23/12/2006 at 22:28
Not to mention quitting a <big>COMPLETELY FREE</big> tertiary education in Finland, one of the most generous countries in the world to students, to go overseas... because they teach Java here.
Get a grip.
Qooper on 23/12/2006 at 22:47
Quote Posted by doctorfrog
So you want to disregard your paid-for education and move to another country? Go to a bookstore and get a C++ book.
Right..
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
How can you be a C/C++ guy if you're going to school to learn programming? If you know enough about it that you're actually a "[language] guy" then you should be fairly proficient.
Ok, maybe I didn't make it clear enough. Sorry. I know the fundamentals of procedural and object-oriented programming. I know C and C++ because I've studied them way before university. And are you a torpedo? You're missing the boat. I first wanted to go study programming, because I thought I'd learn some of the finer points of it, until I realized I wanted to study computer game programming. That should clarify it for you.
Quote:
And if you *are* starting out Java is a better teaching language as you don't have to get bogged down in the ugly details of memory management and pointer hell.
I happen to like the pointer jungle, thank you very much. That is stricly a matter of opinion, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't go there. I dislike Java.
Quote Posted by Vigil
Not to mention quitting a <big>COMPLETELY FREE</big> tertiary education in Finland, one of the most generous countries in the world to students, to go overseas... because they teach Java here.
Get a grip.
No sir, you get a grip (or a brain). :thumb:
Just because studying here is free, doesn't mean I'm going to settle with what we've got here. Or do you think that's what one should do? I will of course attempt to go where I can study what I want.
EDIT: Oh and thanks Ig, the search seemed to skip that one for me..
mopgoblin on 23/12/2006 at 22:53
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
Java and C++ are so similar in syntax I can't imagine disliking one enough to quit school and seek out a program that teaches the other.
Whenever I use Java I find myself wanting to use all the nice stuff c++ has. It's similar enough that the differences are blatant and obnoxious (whereas something like Python or Prolog feels different enough that I don't find myself thinking in c++). For example, if I have a class representing some mathematical object, like an angle or a complex number or a quaternion or a polynomial, I should be able to overload addition and multiplication and so on. It's much nicer to write <pre>z[i+1] = z
* z + c;</pre> than <pre>z[i+1] = c.plus(z.times(z));</pre> or <pre>z[i+1] = (z.times(z)).plus(c);</pre> Brackets and words all over the place, and as the calculations get more complicated it can only get worse. It sucks not having that preprocessing stuff, too.
That said, it's not worth throwing away a free education for. Unless the alternative gets you a much better degree (which game programming probably won't be, as it apparently leads to rather shitty jobs), but then the language isn't the reason anyway.Vigil on 23/12/2006 at 22:55
Sorry for suggesting that the practical considerations of moving to a different country and paying exorbitant tuition fees and living costs might in any way matter compared to your higher calling of... game programming. I must have been living a fantasy life there for a moment.
Qooper on 23/12/2006 at 23:01
Well, Vigil, I must say your practical considerations do make quite an argument, but I'm going to stand my ground on this one. I suppose you don't see it as important to follow your dreams as to stay in Gray Finland for the rest of eternity. If you don't mind my asking, what did you study, and were you happy with the result?
EDIT: mopgoblin, Java isn't the reason. Not alone. The way I see it, staying in Finland to study something that isn't exactly the thing for me (even though it's close) would be giving up and taking the easy route. I'd remain wondering what I would have been able to accomplish abroad. Well, there's no saying I wouldn't be able to seek for a job abroad after studying in Finland. I'm still in the planning phase, pretty much. Looking for options. Just wanted to hear your thoughts I guess. Thanks all.
