Thirteen1355 on 5/1/2021 at 00:45
Hey all,
I don't remember if I've posted here before. I tried to make an account for this place but apparently I already had one.
I wanted to write a post about a frustrating revelation concerning Thief 2: I just played Life of the Party, and was super excited for it. But it ended up being the only mission in the series I skipped up to this point (I skipped Thieves' Guild too because it was tiresome, but went back to it instantly after, regretting my choice).
When I finally obtained the plans for Project Cetus from the safe in Karras' Office, I escaped the building. Everything got alarmed and this looked like the moment to escape.
However, upon returning allllll the way to the bell tower, the mission wouldn't end. Turns out I didn't obtain the scripture I had to get from somewhere. I simply forgot about it. Spent ages finding a way to open Karras' safe in his office. I already had a scripture in my inventory, too.
Upon finding this out, I realised I'd have to go alllllllllll the way back to Angelwatch to get the thing, then go allllll the way back to the start to end the mission. I think this is pretty shitty, to be fair. The level itself also wasn't very engaging. It lacked the nonlinear box design many other Thief 2 levels have. The beginning is very linear and the tower feels quite empty. It still felt like a fine mission overall, and it had some funny secrets, but the scripture thing is pretty stupid.
I was wondering if anyone else shares my experience.
Azaran on 5/1/2021 at 01:11
Quote Posted by Thirteen1355
The level itself also wasn't very engaging. It lacked the nonlinear box design many other Thief 2 levels have. The beginning is very linear and the tower feels quite empty. It still felt like a fine mission overall, and it had some funny secrets, but the scripture thing is pretty stupid.
Rare opinion. LOTP is my favourite T2 OM, and if I remember it's almost universally loved in the community
Thirteen1355 on 5/1/2021 at 01:49
It's very interesting. I've heard about the praise. With many other highly rated levels I tend to agree (The Sword, Song of the Caverns). My personal favourites are these two, Framed, Blackmail, and Trail of Blood. Also really enjoyed Shipping and Receiving, and generally enjoyed pretty much all Thief levels except for the trailing missions, Ambush, some of the final T1 levels, Thieves Guild and Lost City.
I seem to lean towards the missions based on exploring big intricate buildings, but LotP just felt less tight and structured than the others. I think it makes sense though, Angelwatch seems more like a monument than a functional building. I guess the resources that could have been put into giving the building more detail went into the sheer size of the mission (which is impressive nonetheless). The Von Vernon and Willey guards conversation was priceless as well.
demagogue on 7/1/2021 at 04:54
It's a loved mission, mostly because moving by rooftops is practically at the top of our hierarchy of gameplay & aesthetic and it also had a grand scale and it's a high point in the story, but you're right that it doesn't have all that actual gameplay innovation and some clear design flaws like the backtracking problem you mention, I can see how that would sour you to the whole experience. It probably would have been a better experience if you hadn't had that problem.
intruder on 7/1/2021 at 10:16
I see your point Thirteen1355, although this mission is probably my most favorite of them all.
Having designed several missions myself I sometimes too had the problem of finding a meaningfull ending.
So yes, backtracking all the way to the start is the most simple (and sometimes also the laziest) solution from an designer's perspective.
The demo version of LOTP is what has got me hooked to Thief ever since.
I remember playing it back then on a 300MHz machine where loading a level took several minutes - and I had to reload often.
I never played any "first person shooter" prior to Thief but I was immediately drawn into Thief's world; it was the atmosphere that really got me.
I still remember that it took me the entire weekend to finish this mission, but after I was done I felt like: Wow! What a great game!
ZylonBane on 7/1/2021 at 21:57
So you're blaming the mission for you doing a crap job of keeping track of your objectives. Got it.
klatremus on 8/1/2021 at 03:10
I must say I agree with ZB here. The main complaint you have about this mission is the fact that you forgot something that was clearly stated in the objectives. Why do you feel so strongly about the scripture objective, and not the cetus project objective? It's exactly the same, you have to go to the tower to get it too, and then return. Is every objective where you have to get something at the other end of the mission and return to the start decreasing the quality of the level?
I also disagree with the other points you made, it being linear and the tower being empty. Those are absolutely not the memories I have of the mission. You then go on and mention Trail of Blood as one of your favorites, which is the most linear mission in the entire game... :confused:
386SX on 8/1/2021 at 10:59
I'd say instead that mission was one of the few I liked of T2 even if there were others good ones too, like I don't remember the name right now (the early one Garret had to listen at a door, the one with the ghost under that cathedral, the cemetery, etc..) because still had that sort of "ancient/magic/haunting" atmosphere that was more common in Thief Gold than in T2 imho while others level like the second one was just boring..
Returning to the subject I liked also the massive open scenario even if I had to play it with a lower Z-Buffer value for my bad config I played it with, so I didn't enjoyed the level as I should. In fact I remember there was a demo version of a part of that level if I'm correct, that was even better (considering coming from the T1 experience), but others levels were not that good imho. Not to mention the ending of the game that might have deserved a longer better final imho.
Anyway I do agree it was not an easy level.. one thing I always liked about Dark Engines physic logic of those games is that sometimes the character has the freedom to make sort of impossible things like jumping from a balcony to another inside the mansion to escape or inventing probably unexpected ways to climb to the top of the buildings, slowly walk on thin lines on the border of them, etc.. :cheeky:
Thirteen1355 on 8/1/2021 at 12:11
Quote Posted by klatremus
I must say I agree with ZB here. The main complaint you have about this mission is the fact that you forgot something that was clearly stated in the objectives. Why do you feel so strongly about the scripture objective, and not the cetus project objective? It's exactly the same, you have to go to the tower to get it too, and then return. Is every objective where you have to get something at the other end of the mission and return to the start decreasing the quality of the level?
I also disagree with the other points you made, it being linear and the tower being empty. Those are absolutely not the memories I have of the mission. You then go on and mention Trail of Blood as one of your favorites, which is the most linear mission in the entire game... :confused:
Um, maybe because once you get the project blueprints a huge alarm goes off and Garrett says "Gotta make my escape?" ;)
Trail of Blood was awesome yes. It used its linearity to craft a level unlike the other T2 missions. It decided to restrict in favour of unique and creative design. LotP is the usual Thief setting but linear and with a pretty empty tower ahead. Also, I wasn't even blaming the mission. I simply said it soured my experience.
I think Demagogue sums it up nicely.
Though it would probably not have decreased positive perception of the mission at all had the devs simply made escaping Angelwatch end the mission (rather than returning to Bell Tower). Would have made it less retreading the same linear ground, something Trail of Blood doesn't do luckily.
thehardyboyz on 11/1/2021 at 12:54
Quote Posted by Thirteen1355
Um, maybe because once you get the project blueprints a huge alarm goes off and Garrett says "Gotta make my escape?" ;)
Trail of Blood was awesome yes. It used its linearity to craft a level unlike the other T2 missions. It decided to restrict in favour of unique and creative design. LotP is the usual Thief setting but linear and with a pretty empty tower ahead. Also, I wasn't even blaming the mission. I simply said it soured my experience.
I think Demagogue sums it up nicely.
Though it would probably not have decreased positive perception of the mission at all had the devs simply made escaping Angelwatch end the mission (rather than returning to Bell Tower). Would have made it less retreading the same linear ground, something Trail of Blood doesn't do luckily.
Well, maybe my question is stupid, but why didn't you load a previous save, where you were still in the Tower ?
I always keep a few saves of key moments/buildings when playin, just in case I forgot something so I don't have to start all over again