Tenkahubu on 27/3/2006 at 22:50
I haven`t got the game yet (wish my no good brother would hurry up and post me it) but I`ve been hearing lots about how the monsters level up just about as quickly as the player meaning that relatively you do not get much stronger.
There`s a lot of talk of it being a big flaw, but I`d like to hear the opinions of you chaps as they are generally more valuable.
Has anyone noticed this effect?
Aerothorn on 27/3/2006 at 23:10
I haven't got the game yet, but I will say that in Morrowind the enemies did not level up as you got more powerful, and many people considered it a huge flaw - the only way to keep the game remotely challenging once you got past level 30-50 was to raise the difficulty slider every time you leveled up, which results in pretty much the same thing - no point. All games do this to some extent - in action games, you either take on more powerful enemies as you become more skilled and get better weapons, or you simply take on more of them. In console RPGs, you face higher level enemies as you yourself gain levels. From what I've read, in Oblivion this is handled liked most every other gain - you leave up by gaining not just stat bonuses but new skills/abilities/spells/etc - basically more strategic options - and enemies just get flat out more powerful, so you have to find new and more complex ways to battle them as time goes on.
NeoPendragon on 28/3/2006 at 00:24
Aerothorn is right. Oblivion's a lot better than MW in this respect. I wouldn't listen to anything the "uber fans" at the official forums say. They're stupidly irrational. I think I lose an IQ point every time I go there.
Epos Nix on 28/3/2006 at 02:54
Gothic, which I view as The Elder Scrolls' direct (and in many ways, imo, superior) competition, had no such leveling system yet provided just as much player freedom as Oblivion, and I never found myself lacking a challenge there. Actually, it was the big baddies like the Black Trolls that made leveling up worth it. When I reached a point in the game where I could take out a group of dragon snappers without a sweat it was a great sense of accomplishment for me. Had those same dragon snappers been leveling up alongside me what would have been the point?
I view this aspect of Oblivion to be the single worst feature of the game and makes me actually dread leveling up any more. It's almost as if the game is punishing me for leveling up considering I can never gauge just how powerful I am. Fortunatly I'm not playing so much for the combat but the adventure aspect so it's not something that's going to ruin the experience for me. I do see it as stupid though and hope either an official or fan-made mod will correct this and put the fun back in leveling up.
Phatose on 28/3/2006 at 03:24
It's problematic. Part of the issue is the way oblivion level ups work - your stat gains are dependent largely on minor skill usage. Since enemies also level up, it's more quality of level then quantity that matters. Means you really have to map out your levels for stat gain maxing to get ahead.
One of the issues I've encountered is that wildlife, particularly bears and mountain lions, are always ridiculously strong. Your average black bear is about three times as dangerous as the champion of the arena.
Plus, you add in that you could just not level up. Put your class skills as things you'll never ever use, and just gain in minor skills, and you end up becoming more and more relatively powerful compared to your foes.
Not even gonna bother with the whole stupidity of having every bandit get super equipment when you level up high enough. It's a gameplay motif, and I'll accept that.
It's not the ideal solution, but when you get right down to it, it beats the fucking hell out of the morrowind 'Now I am god, haha' approach. I would've rather they limited it some though - make overworld encounters max out pretty low, makes the dungeons more dangerous with creatures and spellcasters without too much uber-equipment on the enemies, and toned down the wild animals.
Still, with the exception of the whole "OH FUCKING NO BEAR RUN RUN FOR YOUR LIFE" thing, it hasn't been causing me any major annoyance. And in reality, the modders are all over this one like stink on shit, so it won't be long before there are mods to get rid of it entirely (if they're not out already). So I wouldn't worry about it too much.
The Blob on 28/3/2006 at 03:33
LOL! Well, I'm sure there might be some sort of tweak (?mod?) for this perhaps if someone gets ahold of that. I can see how everything leveling up with you can be a problem in some instances. Sometimes it's fun for a challenge, but not when that big, scary, hairy rat is causing you second thoughts at level 20.
Mr. Nobody on 28/3/2006 at 04:00
Well for the PC players, there probably won't be much to worry about. Can likely do some editing through the construction set to adjust things however you'd want things or wait for some mods that make changes.
I know personally I didn't play vanilla Morrowind much but downloaded MegaMorrowind and added a few tweaks of my own to it that created a fairly challenging game (for my own tastes). If someone wants to put in some time finding mods or tweaking the game themself, its not too time-consuming and it allows a person to really adjust the game to suit their own needs.
I'm sure there'll be mods for Oblivion that increase NPC stats rather than giving bandits/NPC's super-equipment, probably some scripts could be added that randomize monster generation more by varying their levels and/or attributes according to definable probabilties, which could please the "I want to see lvl 20 monsters when I'm lvl 1 even though I can't kill 'em" type people heh. Likely some new loot/item generation for the lower levels rather than useless junk. Editing merchant inventories to add good items early on.
XBOX users are unfortunately not going to be able to customize their game as much.
BTW, just as a suggestion for those wanting mods that "fix" level scaling... there's no harm in waiting for the mods addressing these problems to mature and/or trying to adjust 'em yourself or trying a few variants. I wouldn't be surprised if a few of the 'rushed' new mods addressing level scaling won't cause some other kinds of issues, balance or otherwise, that players may not like, so be careful and try to be patient :). I'm kinda doubting there will be a magic-fix out tomorrow that pleases everyone but over time, mods will definately address level-scaling as was pointed out by Phatose.
Captain Dopetastic on 28/3/2006 at 04:03
Yeah seriously, WTF with the uber-bears? I had like three of them attack me at once and kill me before I could get more than one hit in.
As for the enemies leveling up along with you, I like it - it's certainly more fun than Morrowind, and it gives me real satisfaction whenever I kill an enemy, not just a feeling that the fight's only purpose was to improve my blade technique a notch.
Tuco on 28/3/2006 at 07:32
If you find it too difficult for your crappily made character, lower the difficulty settings to 'puny worm' level.
Epos Nix on 28/3/2006 at 08:02
Dictionary.com says:
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Can you clarify?
