LCD type/display most suitable for Thief games?

Hiatus on 30/5/2008 at 10:36

... and other (dark) games. Please recommend best LCD type (*-IPS, *VA, TN etc) for that purpose and maybe some specific model you use and could recommend (or not). (Links to) short movies/photos of Thief running on such a display would be perfect (nothing beats seeing it in action for yourself).

I haven't decided things like:

- wide or not
- glare or not (I see it makes image look better but I'm afraid of reflections)
- type (*-IPS, *VA, TN)
- size (most likely sth in 19-24'' range)
- pixel size/native res (what is optimal pixel size?)

etc yet, so I'm open to suggestions (price is also 2nd concern for now - of course there *is* some limit and quality/price ratio counts as well).

TIA for any help to let me enjoy Thief games on LCD tech (hope it's possible :)).

ps I'll mention that I'm quite demanding re such things, but not *very* demanding.
pps is TN and TN + film same thing?
ppps are modern TN (+ film) LCDs still incapable of displaying true 24-bit color and using things like dithering for it?

bikerdude on 30/5/2008 at 15:02

Hi there

A few months back I went through a lot of effort finding the right monitor for Thief. I had £300 to spend and here in the UK we can buy something via the internet and then if we dont like it return it in 7days. So the mission was to find a 20" plus lcd monitor with the following attributes.

- widescreen with 1680x1050 or higher.
- sharp and clean graphics.
- vgood blacks and good black levels
- uniform back lighting
- vgood viewing angles with no discolouration
- good response times with no descernable ghosting
- good downscaling, ie lower resolutions look uniform and smooth.
- good colours with no washed out tones.
- adjustable stand

I tested the following monitors over a 6 week period (HP W2007S, LG L204WS, Samsung 204 & 224BW, Dell 2007WFP & 2407WFP, NEC 20WGX2Pro). All monitors bar the Dell/NEC were TN/VA based, the Dell being IPS and NEC being S-IPS.

The worst of the bunch were the LG and HP, the sharpness was abismal, the blacks were crap, the backlighting was uneven, the ghosting was aweful, but ok colours. The Samsung was only slightly better, but had good colours. The Dell's set the benchmark but had viewing angle issues. So eventually & logically I settled on the NEC - which was the most exspensive of the bunch being IPS based (funny that)

- its 20" 1680*1050 widescreen
- it has a glossy coating, the monitor is at 90degrees to the window and I play thief at night.
- its a Super-IPS, v-sharp, v-good viewing angles, you dont get the that wierd colour change effect at the side of the screen (aka dell 2007wfp and others)
- it also has a 4port USB hub built in (which poers off when the monitor goes to sleep though)

I thoroughly recommend this monitor, in fact if the glossy coating dosent bother u I will lay money down that you will buy this monitor, like I did. :cheeky: Best price I could find was £317inc from microdirect.

If money is tight then the Dell 2007wfp is a good second choice, has ajustable stand, USB ports but the viewing angle discolouration issue might annoy some and might be hard to get a hold of now.

(http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6&ma1=52&mo1=95&p1=969&ma2=88&mo2=106&p2=1042&ph=7) HERE is a really good comparison site that I only just found this evening...

biker

Hiatus on 31/5/2008 at 10:00

Bikerdude

many thanks for your reply - very thourough and helpful :).

re this NEC - it's one of my candidates, although I have a few concerns about it and S-IPS in general:

- it's glossy (how far do you have it standing from the window? how does it fare on a sunny day?)

- this model seems to be quite old (over 2 years on the market already?) - isn't it obsolete by now and to be replaced by newer, more advanced model soon(ish)?

- it's NOT 1920x1200 :P

- (re S-IPS): judging from this test, IPS seems to have quite low *real*/measured contrast - similar to TN (S-PVA excels here) [ (http://pctuning.tyden.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4596&Itemid=47&limit=1&limitstart=1) ] and light black (notice low *real* contrast), also black when viewed from angle is dark-blue and not black [ (http://pctuning.tyden.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4596&Itemid=47&limit=1&limitstart=2) ]. Lastly, dark game comparison (Doom 3), albeit very small pics: [ (http://pctuning.tyden.cz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4596&Itemid=47&limit=1&limitstart=7) ] - S-IPS seems to have washed-out colors, at least viewed from angle (not very good color saturation).

Of course, the monitor in this test is some other NEC model but I wonder if same issues apply here as well.

Have you tested any displays based on newest S-PVA (not mere PVA) generation (it's my fav from what I've read: good/high contrast, good black, reasonably fast etc).

re this NEC: what about input lag? Does it have any? Bad pixels/subpixels: does yours have any (if yes: are they very noticeable) and are they common in this model (and what is NEC policy on them)?

last thing: 20WGX2 vs. 20WGX2 Pro: what's the diff if any? Is Pro newer/better?

Hiatus on 31/5/2008 at 15:23

what do yout think about it?

HP LP2465 24-inch Widescreen LCD Monitor (S-PVA)

(http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/us/en/sm/WF06a/382087-382087-64283-72270-444767-1844961.html)

input lag = 40ms. Not too much for games?

or:

- BenQ 24" FP241W (A-MVA)
- NEC 24" MultiSync 2470WNX (S-PVA) //this one seems quite similar to above HP

any other alternatives?

jay pettitt on 31/5/2008 at 16:11

Jay would like to note that thief is really quite awesome projected on an off-white wall using a rickety 800x600 projector from yesteryear and a woeful s-video connection. This leads Jay to think that rumors regarding thief's specific monitor requirements are exaggerated.

Jay would also like to note that his laptop has a nice enough screen, but it's far far too fussy vis-à-vis vertical viewing angles. This makes thief suck. Wide-screen isn't too thief friendly either.

Hiatus on 31/5/2008 at 17:08

Quote Posted by jay pettitt

Wide-screen isn't too thief friendly either.

not any more:

(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121449)
(http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117616)

(that's why I even consider WS only *now* in the 1st place)

Q about scaling and displaying full screen 4:3 apps (=games) on WS. How does it work? Display has to support it in hardware or graphics drivers can deal with it (what is better)? Say I got a FS (older) game which supports 800x600 (or 1024x768) max. How will it be displayed on say 1680x1050 (or 1920x1200) WS display?

bikerdude on 31/5/2008 at 18:17

Code:

- it's glossy, how far do you have it standing from the window? how does it fare on a sunny day?

- I have it at right angles and 2.5m from the window which is too my right, and the sun never shines directly on it.

Code:

- this model seems to be quite old (over 2 years on the market already?

- isn't it obsolete by now and to be replaced by newer, more advanced model soon(ish)? - I know NEC will be replacing this monitor the middle of this year, btu with what i dont know.

Code:

- it's NOT 1920x1200 :P -

your gfx card will need to be capable of playing games at this res. I have a 8800ultra and most high end game will only run at 1680x1050 with 2xAA and 8xAniso, Plus you also need to consider downscaling quality(lower resolutions) - the Dells and the NEC did that well

Code:

- re S-IPS judging from this test, IPS seems to have quite low

The contrast on the NEC is 700:1 and 1600:1 (w/dv enabled), JayP will vouch for me when it comes to how anal I am when it comes to blacks, the black levels with DV mode (1600:1) enabled were the best of all 6 monitors that I tested - its what sealed the deal when deciding to get rid of my old iiyama 19" pro CRT

Code:

- S-IPS seems to have washed-out colors, at least viewed from angle &not very good color saturation

- the colours are not as vivid as PVA screens, but the sharpness makes up for that. And yes the black at severe side angles are off colour(in my case a dark grey-brown, not blue as in that test), but when are going to be playing a game at 45 degree to the front of the monitor..?

Code:

- have you tested any displays based on newest S-PVA,

- I havent no, I would buy one on a sale and return and see for yourself.

Code:

- what about input lag? Does it have any? Bad pixels/subpixels, does yours have any, what is NEC policy on them?

- there is no discernible lag that i can see, the unit is still perfect, and NEC will replace the monitor if it has 4 black/white dead pixels or 10 subpixels, the warranty is 3yrs.

Code:

- last thing: 20WGX2 vs. 20WGX2 Pro: what's the diff if any? Is Pro newer/better?

- funny you should say that as I now have a 20WGX2 as a spare to my pro and the only difference I can see are that its just a smidgen down on sharpness and this unit is slightly up on the red(which i have adjusted)

Code:

- about scaling and displaying full screen 4:3 apps (=games) on WS. How does it work? How will it be displayed on say 1680x1050 WS display?

- the scaling on the NEC is perfect, its as good as the nvidia scaling - you can choose the stretch the display when doing 1280*1024 or 1:1 when doing lower res.

Dont forget other things to consider are back-light uniformity - so many people forget about this and for thief its Crucial...!!! The Dell and NEC are perfect in this regard. My 6week test was done over a year ago, so there should be better monitors on the market.

biker

d'Spair on 31/5/2008 at 18:52

I've also bought an LCD half a year ago specially to play Thief. It's Samsung SyncMaster 971p and i'm bloody happy with it.

I won't go into technical details, but it offers pretty great amounts of brightness and contrast (4000:1 dynamic contrast), and i can finally play Thief with pleasure after some years spent with old Iiyama LCD monitor.

The only bad thing about this monitor is a pretty low refresh rate (red color being particularly lame), but this thing never bothered me much. LCDs still, sadly, offer a choice of image quality vs. refresh rate, unless you have loads of bucks to throw into a real monster monitor.

Hiatus on 31/5/2008 at 19:16

Quote Posted by Bikerdude

I know NEC will be replacing this monitor the middle of this year, btu with what i dont know.

thanks for this info (do you have any link on it?) - guess i'll wait a bit, then (hope it's worth it).

bikerdude on 31/5/2008 at 20:33

Quote Posted by Hiatus

thanks for this info (do you have any link on it?) - guess i'll wait a bit, then (hope it's worth it).

I just remembered there is others makes you should consider,

BenQ FP241W which is a S-pva monitor but costs £500

Hazro 23" its an upto date S-IPS unit which will do 1920 * 1200 and because its a 23" rather than a 24" it will be super sharp - (http://www.hazro.co.uk/products/hazro_hz23w.html) LINK it also has a 92% colour gamut so will have better colours. - (http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=MO-005-HO) £400 overclockers.co.uk

Also on another note, what ever monitor you settle on make sures its an 8bit rather than a 6bit - you will need to read up why, but suffuce to say 8bit gives you true colour.

biker