Huckeye on 19/7/2001 at 23:16
While you can attract certain fans by EXCLUDING bad language and adult situations (I.E. lesbian dancers), You will NEVER loose a fan by not including those things. Any game on the market would still be just as good without those attributes. No one bought Deus Ex for the language because no one knew it had it until they played it. And if it did not have it, no one would have finished the thing and said, "hey, where was all the cursing?... I want my money back!" It seems to me that if some fans could be lost over that, then it would be left out of all games. I am sure that this is a steaming debate on other boards, but since this is a Deus Ex 2 ideas board, I am posting my ideas.
BackDoorBandit on 20/7/2001 at 19:33
They should do whatever fits the atmosphere. You do not go into a game, movie, song, etc. putting restrictions on yourself as such, because then that breaks, or should I say, limits, your artistic freedom. If the mood fits the so called curse language, then use it. In my opinion, I don't believe in curse words, they're just a word that is used as any other word is, it's part of the English language. There is no curse put on words, therefore; they're just words as any other word. I do understand that some religious folk take offense to them because they say you're not supposed to curse, but that's bulsch. The bible does not say such a thing, it simply says to not used Gods name in vein, and as long as you do this, you'll be fine, and that's only if you actually believe what the bible portrays about our so called God. I'm not going to get in a debate here, and yes I do go to church, non-denominational, but I also have an open mind and am not jaded by such a closed mind that many others have.
As for the adult scenes, the same applys as the above. If the scene, atmosphere, etc. supports it, then use it. Do not limit ones artistic expression through some stupid limitations just becuase you're afraid of getting one of the ruthless "You're going to hell" Christians in a rut.
Huckeye on 20/7/2001 at 23:05
Well Religion aside... some people, for whatever reason don't like to hear or see that. I disagree with your statement about the atmospherer and artistic freedom. The argument I want to make with this post is that if you took all of the questionable material out of Deus Ex you would still have the exact same game, atmosphere, plot, fanbase, etc. I don't believe that IonStorm would have been limited in artistic freedom because all of the stuff I am talking about was not plot sensitive. I do not think that people notice if a game or movie lacks that sort of thing. but people sure notice if it is present. I believe that talented people can create great atmospheres (even of slums, bars, whatever) without resorting to that. What emphasises my point even more is that Deus Ex was created by talented people and they did a great job with the game, but if a few words were left out here and there then the exact same game could have been playable by an entirly new audience without sacrificing the current one.
Lets take Thief as an example. One of my alltime favorite games. What would it mean to the fan base if one of the writers decided to add a shower scene in the game? Would that have affected the plot...No. would it have added anything to the game...No. Would I have still bought it with that "Sexual themes" lable on the box...No. Yet the game was as atmospheric as they come without the questionable material.
I realize that to some people, the things I am talking about are not offensive. I am not trying to convince anyone that they are. I am merely speaking about a marketing oppotinity to generate a higher fanbase for game companies in general... especially the upcoming deus ex. I know of many people who will never buy any game with heavy language or sexual content. I do not believe that fans ever buy games for that sort of thing. If they were really looking for it, 50.00 dollars to play a game for two weeks just to see one 3 second scene is hardly worth it.
green eyed liar on 20/7/2001 at 23:48
<blockquote>“The argument I want to make with this post is that if you took all of the questionable material out of Deus Ex you would still have the exact same game,”</blockquote>
I disagree. Everyone is going to be offended by something. If you took everything questionable or offensive out of the game you wouldn't have a game at all (unless, by “questionable material” you mean just the stuff that offends you, personally). For instance, I'm sure there are some people out there who can find something to be offended by in Pong. And I would be deeply offended if, in Deus Ex 2, after getting shot in the kneecap with a sawed-off shotgun, a tough guy looking AI was to shout “Holy cow!” or “Jeezum Crow!” or “Jiminy Christmas!” or even “Darn-diddely-ding-dong-poop!” Please don't Disneyfie Deus Ex 2.
Huckeye on 21/7/2001 at 03:30
You are assuming that everyones response would result in something that Disney would not publish.
To curse and scream is but one sterotype that game developers seem to unanimously agree is what every good and bad guy alike would do when in danger. I would like to see someone go out on a limb and create characters with more depth. If you took a shotgun shell in your face do you honestly think that you would be aware enough to attempt intimidation through four letter words? If a sound even came out, it would not be comprehendable.
For my request of IonStorm (or whatever they will be called) is to not offend in the arrea of adult content. I know that not everyone will be happy with whatever they decide. But everyone phrase that can be removed from its rating (i.e. language, nudity, etc.) is one more group of people who can enjoy this game just as much as you.
BackDoorBandit on 21/7/2001 at 19:24
Huckeye,
You have lots to learn still. The questionable material (questionable to you anyhow, but not me) that you're talking about is what made DX. You say if they took it out it wouldn't change the game. Yes it would. Maybe one or two of your so called questionable things, if they were taken out, wouldn't change the overall plot of the game, but it would still change the game, and how the Artist (ISA) wanted it presented to us.
You also state that a shower scene wouldn't add anything to Thief. This shows that you've still got plenty to learn in the way of Game Design. You need to go back to my first post and reread it so that you understand that ANY OF YOUR SO CALLED QUESTIONABLE MATERIAL DOES MAKE THE GAME, AS LONG AS IT'S USED IN CONTEXT. Maybe you don't know what IN CONTEXT means, so I shall explain.
Lets take Thief, like you stated above. Now lets take something from the original...lets say, Lord Baffords. The sceptor that you've got to get is in Baffords room. But there's one problem. The door's locked and you can hear noise on the other side. You pick the lock, and what you see is Bafford making out/having sex with/maybe just even on the balcony with a lady in lingerie and you've got to get the goods from his room, but if they notice you, the alarm will be sounded. How does this add to the Thief Atmosphere...it adds a sense of realism. This is what people do in real life. I'm not saying Thief is meant to be a true to life sim, because it's not. But something that totally bothered me about Thief was the fact that everytime you went into a room/barracks/etc., people were fully clothed, and sleeping on top of their sheets. Uhhhh, I doubt that even back then these people stayed fully clothed and on their sheets.
Now, lets take a different scenario. Lets take a man/woman in a shower. You sneak into a mansion, raid a couple of rooms with people actually sleeping underneath their sheets in some type of night wear. You then come upon a room with a man/woman in the shower. If the Artist decides to show you something of that man/woman, that's the artists choice, but if you enter the bathroom, hearing the water coming down, listening to the woman/man in the shower whistling/singing, it adds to the atmosphere. They could even put something important in the bathroom, like a note or evidence in a drawer that you have to get, and as soon as you get it, the person in the shower could be turning off the water, this would be a cue for the player to get the hell out of there. After they turn off the water, you see them grab their towel off of the top of the shower door, and you see them moving around (drying off) If you don't get out of there, you get caught. If you do, the person doesn't notice you and they keep going on about their business. Again, the Artist can determine how much he/she wants to show you. When the man/woman starts to step out of the shower, they could have towel wrapped around them.
I don't understand your reasoning, and you don't have any good arguments to back up your reasoning. You say that you wouldn't buy a game if they show someone naked or something, but you'll buy a game that involves KILLING people? Gee, you've got some great morals. You'll KILL someone, but you WON'T LOOK AT ANYONE NAKED OR SOMETHING IN YOUR MIND THAT IS "QUESTIONABLE MATERIAL"?
Go back and reevaluate why you play games, and what you do in games, and how you interact with the environment in them and how the atmosphere of games can be more engrossing and make you feel as one with the environment in the game.
Something else to think about. Take Giants: Citizen Kabuto for instance. It shipped with a Mature rating. Interplay tried patching up Delphi's tits with a bra at the last second to get a Teen rating...they didn't succeed. You know why? Because blood and killing people/things is just as bad as sexual material.
Oh, and maybe I didn't make myself clear on this issue before as well...IT'S CALLED "ARTISTIC FREEDOM". BTW, Huckeye, you deeply offended me by posting this nonsense. You need to not post anything with nonsense again so that you have a higher fan base and more people read your threads :p
:p :p
[ July 21, 2001: Message edited by: BackDoorBandit ]
Huckeye on 22/7/2001 at 00:07
Backdoor, you are a moderator?!? :eek:
disagree with my opinion if you want, but don't chastise me for expressing it on an open forum. The whole purpose of this forum is to express and discuss desires for deus ex 2. You seem to think that I am not allowed that priviledge. Mocking my morals is no way to encourage people to post here, but I suppose you have a disagreement with that as well. I expected debate from this topic, not childish bickering.
Chaos lord on 22/7/2001 at 01:23
Well, you can't enter in a gheto and expect the people there to talk you as if you are on a diplomatic meeting :) it's atmosphere, that thing :P
Huckeye on 22/7/2001 at 01:59
Chaos Lord: I understand about Mood and ambience. And I am not proposing that the Mechs say darn it all to heck when someone escapes. But I am really curious if you would have noticed anything different if there was no language in deus Ex. Whats the difference in "he got away", "watch out, a guy in black", "hes some kind of mech", and "###$^&*(#*^^*" All of which were in Deus Ex. Did one not set the mood as well as the others did? If you think there is a difference, I wood like to know.
Meroveus on 22/7/2001 at 20:51
I don't particularly care for things like sex scenes and stuff like that in a game. If I wanted that I would look at porn, which would be much better than looking at hollow blocky models. That being said, with violence already in the game I don't think that it would be surprising to see sexual related things. If they go for a "Mature" rating, then it's up to them to add them or not. I don't recall that Deus Ex had anything remotely explicit concerning this, the lesbian thing was rather subtle and I don't think anyone would really find it offensive. Besides that, cursing was really minimal with a few "shit" and "ass" here and there in places where you WOULD expect it, like ghettoes or gang dominated areas. It perfectly fits the mood and was adequate. If you want to hear some *bad* cursing, go play Kingpin. :rolleyes:
