Know any martial arts?

Matthew on 22/1/2007 at 10:17

Thanks everyone. I'll take a look around and see which one appeals to me. As I say though, it's really for fun, exercise and as an absolute last-resort thing though, in descending order of importance.

Cerpin on 25/1/2007 at 08:47

I have/had a green belt in Tae Kwan Do. I also did boxing for a year, which I actually became pretty good at. Boxing was actually MUCH harder than TKD.

Jakeyboy on 25/1/2007 at 12:56

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Word.
If you have to think about using it then you've messed it up. Anything you learn should naturally integrate with whatever you would have done if you had no training at all. In my (limited) experience if you fight someone who is just good it makes little difference anyway. On the other hand if you find it natural it does make a lot of difference, especially against guys who think they can take you just because their brute strength clearly outmatches yours.

Seconded. To help work on moving naturally at Aikido we often do multiple person attacks, usually based on one form of attack, and the thrower performs whatever technique feels natural. Also good for developing ukemi because you don't know how you're going to be thrown you need to go on reaction.

Sombras on 25/1/2007 at 17:02

Quote Posted by Cerpin

I have/had a green belt in Tae Kwan Do. I also did boxing for a year, which I actually became pretty good at. Boxing was actually MUCH harder than TKD.

Bravo. Nicely put. I agree, wholeheartedly--says Sombras, nursing a bruised right eyelid from a hard blow through his glove this morning...

And about aikido... . I'm not going to say that any martial art is crap, because there's some value in just about anything you can "study". BUT...I do have a martial arts training rule: The more you have to rely on your "partner's" cooperation to do it right, the less likely it is to have practical value when you need it.

Cerpin on 25/1/2007 at 17:06

Quote Posted by Sombras

So very, very true. Real life self-defense does not forgive if your attacker has his or her legs or arms in this or that position, thus making the stuff you've learned useless.

SubJeff on 25/1/2007 at 17:59

Quote Posted by Sombras

And about aikido... . I'm not going to say that any martial art is crap, because there's some value in just about anything you can "study". BUT...I do have a martial arts training rule: The more you have to rely on your "partner's" cooperation to do it right, the less likely it is to have practical value when you need it.

Hmmm. It's clear you haven't done enough aikido or done enough research on the subject.

The reason your partner has to co-operate in aikido is two-fold.
1. Initial co-operation allows you to learn how to perform techniques, how to move, how to manipulate and so on.
2. Failure to co-operate = broken limb/other injury. Let me take you through a quick example: certain wrist "throws" or "projections" put a lot of tension on the wrist joint - this is the point. In a real fight you will complete the technique and break the joint or send the person flying a few feet before landing hard. This is clearly not appropriate for training.

Not co-operating is the equivalent of going to a Wing-Chun class where the trainer just proceeds to beat you up and expects you to learn the skills from constant beatings just so you can defend yourself.

And in aikido you do get classes that are geared to real combat and expect you to really attack during randori (one person being randomly attacked from all sides). There should be no co-operation in randori, so if you cannot fall you will be broken and juniors shouldn't really take part in it when it's done properly.

Sombras on 26/1/2007 at 00:46

This is good stuff. Thanks for the info SE!

True, I'm definitely not an expert on or at aikido. I did study it as a kid for about a year, but not long enough to develop an appreciation for it as a practical form of self-defense or to feel any good at it.

I earned the first dan in chang hon TKD six years ago and all I can say is, compared to boxing or muay thai--ho hum. I have trained in MT and taught competitive amateur boxing and can say that even if you don't strap on boxing gloves before a real fight, wear a mouthpiece, OR stand around with your guard high not afraid that you'll have to splay for a takedown, the cumulative effect of hitting and being hit and learning how to deal with it was more instructive for me than five years of serious TKD training and competition.

When it comes down to it, the most important success factors in any physical altercation are probably, in the following order:

(1) mental/emotional stability, toughness, and/or confidence (maybe substitute savagery in there somewhere)
(2) overall physical health and agility
(3) size and strength (NOT always the deciding factor, but definitely important in many scenarios)
(4) technical skill/training in a martial art

...with (4) being WAY down on my list.

Plain and simple: the best fighters are those who fight, a lot, not those who train.

SubJeff on 26/1/2007 at 01:59

Ya, but 4 can be a big influence on 1. I'd combine 2 and 3. The training I've done will be very different to yours though - mostly grapples ending in groundwork. You may (or may not) be surprised to know that I found aikido to be pretty useful on the ground simply because I've recognised openings that my opponent didn't even know existed. I haven't trained at all for a couple of years now though, but a guy I work with (who is bigger and far stronger than me) had a drunken wrestle (basically picking on) some of our other colleagues a few weeks ago. I thought he was being just a bit of a macho bully so stepped up to the plate. A few throws, locks and chokes later and he was done and the only reason is that he really thought his strength was all he needed - he had no training at all.

A old girlfriend of mine is really into aikido and the guys at her club (dicks imho btw) are constantly getting into altercations in pubs and clubs and always using aikido to lock and throw their opponents. They are trained and confident and they have the jump on these guys. In the end that is all there is to it - you bring a greater set of x,y and z to the arena and you win. Which part you really excel in is up to you.

I believe that all martial arts can give you something (apart from fun, fitness etc) although I too dislike some of them, like Judo. Even then, a solid O Goshi hip thrown on the street (concrete) will take out anyone. It's primarily a sport though, rather than a combat art. Isn't TKD the same? A Chi Gong (amongst others) master I met in Taiwan (I'm sure I've told the story before) would only let his wayward son train in TKD, and would not teach him anything of his own arts. He told me that his son would never really be a danger to anyone that way.

Sombras on 26/1/2007 at 16:38

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

The training I've done will be very different to yours though - mostly grapples ending in groundwork.

Dammit, I wish I could do that type of training. Every time I look into committing it's at the wrong time (I can only train 6-7:30am) or I go and do something silly like have a baby or something. :)

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

A Chi Gong (amongst others) master I met in Taiwan (I'm sure I've told the story before) would only let his wayward son train in TKD, and would not teach him anything of his own arts. He told me that his son would never really be a danger to anyone that way.

:laff: [long anecdote of questionable interest to most] I had been training in both TKD and boxing for some time when I went to a BIG TKD tournament in central Michigan. At this tourney, the organizers ruled out punches to the head, and refused to "score" punches to the body, even though they were allowed. Real Olympic-style crap. In fact, in one bout I got a point taken away for punching an opponent too hard through his hogu (protective vest)!

Anyhoo, I'm in the light-heavyweight finals against this tall, fast, and lanky dude--he looked like an angry praying mantis. He saw me drop the guy with the body shot in the last round, so he's staying away from me, kicking from every possible angle, and scoring shit-loads of points. At one point I block a kick, step in and start to throw a left hook before I realize what I'm doing and stop the punch. Mantis-guy freaks out and falls down without my ever touching him--and they dock me a point. After that I just checked out. I LET the guy kick me at will after that because I KNEW that it wasn't going to do any real damage unless he got incredibly lucky. He won the bout and ended up taking the whole shitteree. He refused to look at me after we bowed out, however, because he knew I had no ounce of fear of him or any regard for his skills.

I tested for first-dan a couple of months after that and then left TKD. Not saying that TKD is bad, but it didn't do for me what I wanted it to do. Since then I've concentrated on boxing and muay thai and had a blast. I'd love to learn some grappling. *sigh*[/long anecdote of questionable interest to most]

SubJeff on 26/1/2007 at 17:17

LOL! Good story. There you go then. :)

Just in case...
[long anecdote of questionable interest to most]
So I was in Taiwan for 4 months and looking to do some training. I'd done a favour for some Taiwanese guys who put me in contact with some underground Wing Chun guys in return, but I couldn't make the times. :(

So I ended up going to this Chi Gong master (a rec from some Canadian guy I met out there) who was a teacher of many arts. We had a first meeting where we discussed what I wanted to get out of it over tea and when he mentioned Chi Gong I casually mentioned Iron Shirt (a fairytail technique from Chinese kung-fu films - where a blade will cut the clothes but not the skin).

So he tells me he can do Iron Shirt and when I respond with disbelieving surprise he shows me the real Iron Shirt. He takes off his shirt (built like Bruce Lee) and lets me lay into him with bodyshots for as long as I like, occasionally egging me on to try harder. I must've hit him 50 times and he just took it. I wasn't pulling my punches either and was probably 1.5 times his weight.

Then we drank more tea before he put me through a short training session that was the hardest of my life - and I hardly moved, I kid you not. Finally he told me my Chi was too weak and to come back when I'd developed it some more. As I left I saw all the martial arts trophys he had on a set of shelves. I've no idea what they were for but there were that many they were just crammed in haphazardly.

The funny thing was he didn't have a mark on him after I'd pummeled his torso but my knuckles were anything but peachy.

True story.
[long anecdote of questionable interest to most]