Dominique on 7/4/2022 at 21:26

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Hi,
Does anyone tried to knockout every enemy in every mission?

I ask because in the last mission of Thief 2 there are these spider bots.

So did someone tried it?

Dominique on 7/4/2022 at 23:13

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OK.

But how many water arrows are available in the last mission in Thief 2?

I can remember that I didn't have that much arrows.

Galaer on 8/4/2022 at 14:33

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If you include destruction of bots in your quest to knockout every enemy, then there are also other problems. Turrets and watchers are immune to water arrow. You need 1 fire arrow for watcher and 2 on turret. You can also try throwing mines on top of them and detonate them with broadhead arrow. But there is no unlimited supply of fire arrows and mines. Another problem are big bots and turrets behind iron walls, they can only be released by being seen by certain watchers.

Dominique on 8/4/2022 at 17:58

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Hi Kangra,

That sounds interesting!

Looks Like we should create challenge rules!

I remember that in Angelwatch I have knocked out every enemy. In the first floor you can also open the locked double door with the Sunburst device or several fire arrows. I also remember that I made it in the streets after loosing most health points. I could even walk a few meters until mission failed.

Kangra on 9/4/2022 at 04:58

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So this is my working set of rules so far. It seems detailed, but really it's more of notes on the rules that I've added to and expanded as I think of new situations. It more than likely needs to be refined, restated or scaled down more.

I've taken to calling the style 'TKO' for 'Total Knockout' because this isn't boxing so the name can be anything.

General Rules for Total Knockout

* Every creature that could reliably report the presence of a thief is incapacitated ("knocked out") at the time the mission is done, and any discovery of this happening occurs well after the thief is gone.

* Aside from missing loot, there should be no clear evidence of the thief's presence, or anyone recalling actually seeing a thief. Preferably nobody recalls anything unusual occurring at all prior to becoming unconscious.

* No deaths or serious injuries have been caused directly or indirectly by the thief's presence.

The desired effect is that it is as if a wave of sleeping gas (or a spell) came over the whole area, allowing someone to swoop in and pick the place clean, with no one the wiser until the next morning.

More specifically:

1) All entities that could reliably report the incident, even if they would not travel in the area where the theft occurred, must be incapacitated at the time the mission ends.

i. Reliable reporters include human guards and civilians, mechanical creatures, as well as animal creatures that appear to have some level of language skill.

ii. Undead enemies (including those capable of speech, such as haunts) are not considered reliable reporters and do not need to be knocked out, but also should not be disturbed or clearly alerted to the thief's presence. In particular, they must not alert anyone else to the thief's presence.

iii. Any inert/inactive creature that is not a reliable reporter (such as a sleeping zombie) must not become active due to the thief's actions.

iv. Any entity that disappears after an event, or is not accessible within the level (prisoners, for example) can be ignored for these purposes.


2) No bodies can be discovered by enemies. Bodies are not allowed to be moved.

i. Bodies may be dragged or moved to complete an objective.

ii. Bodies may be 'repositioned' to obtain loot on their person or in the event that the body blocks access to necessary loot/passages.

iii. In the event that a knockout inadvertently causes a body to fall into water, fire, or a similar immediately life-threatening environment, the body may be removed from danger. The location where the body is left must match the place as close as possible to where the knockout occurred, or where the target normally patrols or is positioned.


3) No top-level alerts of sentient entities caused by the thief may occur (Level 3 or initiation of direct action towards the thief).

i. If an enemy becomes alerted just as it is knocked out, this is acceptable. It's preferable if the awareness is not deemed a necessary part of the knock-out (i.e. running up quickly to someone and smacking them without trying to be stealthy is discouraged).

ii. Level 2 alerts (active searching without a definite target) are discouraged, and should only be used to obtain a knock-out as a last resort. Targets may not be blackjacked while actively engaged in searching (gas is okay). Knocking out a target when it is returning to its normal position/patrol is acceptable but discouraged as much as the alert itself.

iii. Non-sentient creatures (e.g. spiders, burricks) are allowed to detect the thief as long as they do not alert other enemies, and do not cause harm to themselves or others as a result of the detection.

iv. Alarms not related to a specific entity (e.g. triggered by Watchers) are to be avoided. They are acceptable only if nobody could possibly be aware of them going off, and must not be active when the mission ends.

4) At the end of the mission, minimal evidence remains of the thief's presence. Doors should remain in their original state, items that can be returned to their original location must be returned, etc.

i. A lock should not be picked if there exists a feasible way to complete the task without picking the lock. It may be picked freely if it can be locked later. Picking locks to obtain loot or necessary equipment is okay.

ii. Use of moss arrows is disallowed (leaves evidence). Other arrows (e.g. noisemaker) can be used only if they are recovered before any enemy discovers them, and they should not be used in a situation where their firing could be considered obviously observed. Flame arrows may be used as a distraction as a last resort, although their path to the target must not be 'observable' since the flame crystal itself is highly visible.

iii. Rope (or equivalent) arrows are allowed as long as they are retrieved, and used in locations that are not noticeable.

iv. Using water arrows to douse lights is allowed but discouraged; if any burning fire is doused (outside of disabling mechanical enemies), it should be re-lit.

v. Use of flash bombs is at the player's discretion. As a fairly likely indication of some presence human or otherwise, they should at minimum be discouraged. Use on non-sentient creatures is allowed.

vi. Potions do not leave evidence; usage of them is discouraged but allowed.

5) No entity may be killed or seriously injured by direct or indirect action of the thief.

i. 'Indirect action' includes, but is not limited to: explosive mines, allowing an incapacitated enemy to fall into danger of death, leading enemies to fight each other, or causing an enemy to self-destruct.

ii. Deaths or injury that occur as a result of events triggered by the player are acceptable, but should be avoided if possible.

iii. Damage incurred during knockouts (as long as it is non-lethal) does not count against this rule.


6) All objectives must be accomplished to finish the mission. If one of the objectives prohibits knockouts generally, the run is voided. Outside of this one case, completion of an objective does not violate any of the rules.

i. The thief should obtain all loot that it is possible to get in the level.

ii. No restrictions are made on equipment obtained prior to or during the mission.