demagogue on 9/10/2010 at 16:49
I remember being in NYC on December 8, 2005, the 25th anniversary of Lennon's death. It was lightly snowing that day. I wanted to walk to the south-west corner of Central Park, not far from where I was living, where the "Imagine" mosaic is, and carry my acoustic guitar even though it had broken a string and I didn't have a replacement. I'd heard a group of people were meeting to sing through the Lennon repertoire. Even though I only knew the chords for a few songs, I figured I could work them out by watching other people's guitars and maybe someone would have a fake book. But at the last moment I got dragged into some dumb chore that wouldn't let me get away long enough. I heard later that Yoko Ono came down at some point to thank everyone and sing along for a little while. I really wanted to go. I do recall playing a few songs on my own though. I bet there's a lot more people at that place today than then; but it was a really cold, snowy day that day.
Aerothorn on 9/10/2010 at 17:32
RBJ: I'll agree with you that simple does not equal shit. My problem (or our problem, I should say - this discussion was more led by my friend) was purely on the content - I got the impression that Lennon himself hadn't really put a lot of thought into the implication of some of what he was saying. I don't want to derail this topic over that song (and I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it - I don't want to castigate the guy over a single instance of artistic failure), but there are just too many flat-out sections that go beyond naivete into a fundamental misunderstand of societal construction. "Imagine there's no countries/it isn't hard to do." Maybe not for the great imagination of Lennon, but I, for one, cannot imagine a world without nation-states or tribalism.
Kolya on 9/10/2010 at 18:42
artistic failure? fundamental misunderstanding of societal construction?
just shut up
and I mean that in a friendliest possible way
Thor on 9/10/2010 at 18:48
Details, details. It's in the emotion. Imagine succeeded. Analysis there is beyond unnecessary. (+1 with Kolya)
Lennon's stuff is good to listen to indeed.
Fingernail on 9/10/2010 at 18:49
I think he's using the word countries to signify patriotism really, as it goes on to state "nothing to kill or die for".
However, the song asks the listener to "imagine" these things and is an invitation to become a "dreamer", and should not necessarily be read as "John Lennon's Proposal for Social Policy".
Even asking to imagine the impossible makes us consider what it is about these things that make them inevitable (ie. religion, countries, fighting and war).
demagogue on 9/10/2010 at 19:14
Yeah, I've always felt it just on the emotional level. This is still the same guy that wrote Revolution, which says we're happy to hear your plan for improving society, but we're not going to be literally ripping up any constitutions, nothing involving hate or overthrowing any institutions when you should be freeing your mind instead, and if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao, you ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow.
Anyway, my favorite Lennon song is "Across the Universe", where the words really are flowing out. I love playing it on the piano; it just ... flows.
I've heard the magic of the Beatles, aside from the studio and production work, was also the friendly rivalry between Lennon and McCartney to out-do each other in writing songs, and the fact they never wanted to make the same album twice, so they were always pushing to have a new sound for the next one and kept evolving.
fett on 9/10/2010 at 20:44
Quote Posted by MrDuck
Fading glory or continuing success if he had lived?, God alone knows...I don't mind the first if it meant he was alive and kickin' it still today.
I've wondered this as well. It seems that many greats just tend to burn out as they get older - look at the direction Elvis was headed when he died. On the other hand I was watching some clips of Stevie Wonder and Sting the other night, and just bowled over with how well they've aged. I can criticize Sting a lot for becoming a corporate sell-out or whatever, but musically speaking, he's not trying to salvage what he did 30 years ago. He's explored new music that's relevant to him and doesn't care much how his fans react to it. At the same time, he seems to cherish the legacy of The Police in a way that time and distance never allowed Lennon to do with the Beatles. I also bought the latest Stevie Wonder album a few months ago, and though it's a bit muddled in spots, he still has things to say, both lyrically and musically, and he doesn't rehash the glory days much. Not trying to compare either of these guys to Lennon, only saying that I'd like to imagine John would have kept exploring and making music that was true to himself the way these guys have. It would have been awesome to watch him continue to grow and change. God knows we don't have enough true rebels left these days, at least any with enough clout to get their message out.
I subjected both of my boys to Abbey Road and the Imagine album while out running errands this morning. Lots of people about wearing Beatles shirts, lost of stores playing Lennon over the P.A. today. Kind of refreshing for my little corner of the Ozarks. :)
Dia on 10/10/2010 at 01:36
I loved Lennon's somewhat twisted sense of humor: he was writing Monty Python-esque stuff before M. Python ever appeared on BBC. His book, 'In His Own Write', still makes me laugh.
.:Good Dog Nigel:.
Arf, arf, he goes, a merry sight,
Our little hairy friend,
Arf, arf, upon the lampost bright
Arfing round the bend.
Nice dog! Goo boy,
Waggie tail and beg,
Clever Nigel, jump for joy
Because we're putting you to sleep at three of the clock, Nigel.
Mr.Duck on 10/10/2010 at 03:12
Quote Posted by fett
At the same time, he seems to cherish the legacy of The Police in a way that time and distance never allowed Lennon to do with the Beatles.
That's another thing, he had a decade and one year (or two, if memory serves...) after the Beatles split up (the definitive one, that is), a decade seems like reasonable time, but then some wounds, amongst other things, run deep and take time to recover...maybe if he had more time....dunno...a nice reunion with the res of the Beatles would have been something. Maybe good, maybe not, still, would have been worth to see.
Oh well...like 'Imagine', I can be a dreamer and dream...
Tocky on 10/10/2010 at 03:43
I don't think some realize that Imagine is all the more sad for it's impossibility and Lennon was aware of it. That's how I imagine it at least. Being sung with optimism only heightens that.
I'm curious to know what artistry Yoko possessed. All I know of is cutting things in half and painting them white. Surely not her singing which I believe to be one of the levels of hell. Cruel Chicky Baby was most apt.
I am absolutely going to have to read In His Own Write now.
