SubJeff on 21/1/2010 at 11:31
Yeah dude but its the fact that the "we" is the white man.
Thirith on 21/1/2010 at 12:23
When it comes to racism, some people seem to think that in order to be racist, you have to be negative about an ethnic group: "Black people are all drug pushers!", "Jews are greedy bastards!", that sort of thing.
Racism isn't just about obviously negative stereotyping - it's about any kind of reductive stereotyping: "Blacks have rhythm and are great at basketball!", "Asians are good at maths!" Practically any statement along the lines of "All X (ethnic group) are Y" are racist as a tendency, because they deny group X their individuality.
In the case of Avatar, though, it sounds more like a white guilt storyline. Sure, you've got the old Noble Savage chestnut, which often has racist traits, but do the Na'vi map clearly onto any ethnicity? Aren't they more of a vague amalgamate of different stereotypes? Yes, there may be some racist aspect to this, but it's so woolly that getting too hung up on Avatar's potential racism pretty much makes me think that the people championing those views need a reality check.
*Zaccheus* on 21/1/2010 at 12:33
I've heard various people talk about the big tree being toppled as an analogy for 9/11, where did that come from? :confused:
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Yeah dude but its the fact that the "we" is the white man.
Would it have helped if the hero had been from an ethnic minority?
Perhaps the bad guys could have been russian oligarchs instead?
Vivian on 21/1/2010 at 12:51
Evil space russians would have been 100% more interesting.
SubJeff on 21/1/2010 at 12:54
Quote Posted by Thirith
Practically any statement along the lines of "All X (ethnic group) are Y" are racist as a tendency, because they deny group X their individuality.
Strongly disagree.
Its only racist if you make such a statement that also implies that the ethnic group in question is inferior in any way. Stating that black people are darker than non-blacks is not racist, and yet it is only the tendency.
Thirith on 21/1/2010 at 13:51
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Strongly disagree.
Its only racist if you make such a statement that also implies that the ethnic group in question is inferior in any way. Stating that black people are darker than non-blacks is not racist, and yet it is only the tendency.
I agree when it comes to statements such as "black people are darker than non-blacks". When it comes to stuff such as "black people have rhythm" or "Jews are shrewd businessmen", we're moving away from what is self-evident and part of the definition towards stereotyping, and that is racist because it's reductive. It moves towards "they're all the same", and that is pejorative, although in a less straightforward way than "Blacks are all lazy bastards" or similar statements.
Of course it gets complicated if you're talking about tendencies and cultural bias, but most of these statements, being reductive, completely ignore the whole nature/nurture issue.
SubJeff on 21/1/2010 at 16:34
My point is its only racist, by definition, if its a negative stereotype. Blacks having rhythm is generally true and there is even a putative physiological basis to it. Jews being good businessmen and Asians being good at maths - neither are racist statements. They may by stereotyping but when does stereotyping become racist? When its negative is when.
Thirith on 21/1/2010 at 17:38
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
My point is its only racist, by definition, if its a negative stereotype. Blacks having rhythm is generally true and there is even a putative physiological basis to it. Jews being good businessmen and Asians being good at maths - neither are racist statements. They may by stereotyping but when does stereotyping become racist? When its negative is when.
Then we're simply working with different definitions, which is fair enough.
Would you describe stereotyping as neutral behaviour in itself, or is it something that is already negative to some extent?
SubJeff on 21/1/2010 at 17:59
The act of stereotyping? Its naturally human.
Vivian on 21/1/2010 at 19:12
Surely racism is just the belief in significant racial differences. Common usage associates 'racism' with negative racism, but I think the technical definition is just belief in 'races' in the first place.
