Red_Breast on 20/8/2013 at 13:55
I'm fond of the old point and clicks and reading these posts has reminded me of the mess that was Escape From Monkey Island. Those were dark days for adventure games with developers trying to bring their games to the world of 3D. Broken Sword 3 was another culprit. Looking forward to the new Broken Sword on Kickstarter though with it's 2.5D look.
If you want to give an example of bad gameplay then Escape from MI has it with the controlling Guybrush element. There was no point to it.
SubJeff on 20/8/2013 at 14:16
I agree that Journey is a great as it is because of all of it. Thief too. They are the product of their parts.
Nevertheless, every game has a core gameplay mechanic and this is not a subjective thing. Journey's core gamplay is moving your avatar around, jumping, flying, recharging and upgrading the flying ability, losing the flying ability, recharging a companion and so on.
As such you do not need the graphics, the music; what is essentially the setting (that every game has to a greater or lesser extent) for these gameplay mechanics to work. You just as easily be a chicken on a farm, a robot on an abandoned alien moonbase or a drop of water in a pond.
Adventure game have similar mechanics - you explore, find assets (items, passwords, facts), find puzzles, solve them using the assets. The exact implementation differs but the core remains the same. The implementation, however, can be as simple or as complex as you want it. Monkey Island was fairly simple but there is nothing stopping one from making a multi-layered language based thriller into an adventure game where the assets have multiple uses, can be combined, can be used to make solutions as well as puzzles and vice versa, etc, etc.
386DX on 22/8/2013 at 09:29
Apparently I'm failing to see the improvements the Thief reboot is going to provide to us in regards to movement especially. One of the big things that attracted me to Thief was the freedom of movement and the ability to use building architecture as a means of getting around. I've never looked at buildings the same way after playing Thief.
1998
I jump when and where I want whether it does me any good or not just like real life.
I use rope arrows on any wooden surfaces.
I strafe side to side (anyone who plays sports knows this is a valid movement).
I lean side to side and forward whenever I want just like I can in real life.
2014
You can jump where the game thinks you should be able to.
You can use rope arrows only in predetermined locations.
Strafing seems to be unchanged.
Leaning is allowed but only when you are dry humping whatever is in front of you.
2014 done right
Jumping is completely free. Body reacts to the action of jumping.
Rope arrow usage is material based and thus free. Better animations, body awareness, effective and stable means of attaching/detaching.
Strafing left intact.
Leaning is free. Body awareness when close to surfaces.
When approaching hard cover in combat you are several feet away providing a better approach for angling your line of sight. Same would be true with a bow. As several people have mentioned already there are important instances where it is efficient to lean and shoot a water arrow away from a wall. While playing Thief I lean around corners extensively without humping the wall in front of me.
The consequence of using swoop has to be sound. This mechanic is used to quicken the gameplay and make it more bearable to the mass market by going between shadows as mentioned during the gameplay demos. This therefore must be offset by sound.
It is beyond me as to why the gameplay freedom of the first two was extinguished in exchange for some fancy animations. The gameplay freedom should have been the foundation and the fluff and animations should have been secondary. Actually I think it has a lot to do with the 6 million figure they are aiming for and not solidifying and perfecting game mechanics from the first two games. I doubt our esteemed community manager will be back any time soon so my confusion will continue until someone on here who's concerned about the same kind of things I am, plays the game and tells us how all of this has come together.
SubJeff on 22/8/2013 at 09:39
Quote Posted by 386DX
It is beyond me as to why the gameplay freedom of the first two was extinguished in exchange for some fancy animations.
It hasn't - the game is mostly in first person so you won't see any animations.
386DX on 22/8/2013 at 11:10
I meant specifically body awareness animations. Freedom of movement should have been the foundation and the nice body awareness animations should have built upon that. That was the natural progression I was expecting in a 2014 Thief game.
infinity on 22/8/2013 at 20:38
Quote Posted by CloudOJD
At this point, we should start petitioning Eidos to halt the development of this impending catastrophe.
:( Probably true. How did it ever come to this?
Dia on 22/8/2013 at 23:25
I'd sign that petition in a heartbeat!
:thumb:
Goldmoon Dawn on 23/8/2013 at 00:11
I've fallen, and I can't reach my beer.
(a little Wisconsin humour) :p
Rope Arrow on 23/8/2013 at 02:32
Quote Posted by 386DX
I meant specifically body awareness animations. Freedom of movement should have been the foundation and the nice body awareness animations should have built upon that. That was the natural progression I was expecting in a 2014 Thief game.
This. This is exactly what I'm thinking. In this day and age of near photo-real graphics and technology that would have made the crew at Looking Glass piss themselves with jealous envy, we
should have an astoundingly immersive experience where every command is under our control, with excellent body-awareness and tactile feeling. Free to mess up and look stupid, of course. But with that comes freedom to pull awesome, organic stunts and feel like a badass, as I've done countless times in TDP and TMA. Instead, this all-important 'immersion' seems to come at the price of freedom. Sure, it's cool that Garrett's hands can be seen touching stuff, but only in very specific instances. 1. Step near wall. 2. Either press 'Y' to crouch behind it or 'X' to vault over it. 3. If 'Y', move left analogue stick to strafe, right analogue stick to peak. If 'X', show third-person vaulting animation. Games these days more resemble a checklist that determines what kind of flashy animation you see.
I was more immersed than I ever was playing Call of Duty, or even Skyrim. And for no other reason that every action was under my control at every moment. The game
never yanked control away or threw a whole different set of controls at me depending on what I was standing next to. And this game came out in 1998! What
happened?Queue on 23/8/2013 at 02:38
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
I've fallen, and I can't reach my beer.
(a little Wisconsin humour) :p
Stick to cheese.
... stinks less.
