I've fallen, and I can't get up

Thirith on 20/8/2013 at 09:54

Quote Posted by Vivian

Point was, BTD described an awesome game (great engine, great level design, great storyline) and then was like 'yeah if you have those three I can forgive a lot'. Well... yeah? I mean, as long as woman has great looks and a great personality I'm happy.

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

But the most important thing is the gameplay.

Gameplay is exactly the thing Brian *didn't* mention, Vivian.

I absolutely see your point, SE; I just don't subscribe to it, not 100%. Some of my favourite games have had middling, minimal or pretty much inexistent gameplay. I love what I've played of Kentucky Route Zero, I greatly enjoyed The Walking Dead, I'm a big fan of Journey. Reduce those to their gameplay and they suck, no two words about it.

Yes, I'd love the new Thief to have great or even good gameplay. I love the original games' gameplay. But I'd be lying if I said that mediocre or even bad gameplay completely kills a game for me.

Chade on 20/8/2013 at 09:57

Thief is first and foremost notable as the series with the best stealth gameplay, though, not the series with the best writing. If the stealth gameplay really does turn out to be horrible I for one would be ... well, it would have to be one really damn awesome story, let's just say that ...

Thirith on 20/8/2013 at 10:14

Certainly, Chade. Depending on how badly they serve the series (and I agree that based on what we've learnt so far it looks like gameplay-wise they may well be bending it over a table and asking it to enjoy it), I probably won't be able to overcome the "It says it's Thief but it's not!" thing unless the atmosphere and level design are absolutely stunning.

Vivian on 20/8/2013 at 10:15

Welll.... what is gameplay that's not in the engine? AI? Ok, bad AI can be annoying, but you can get away with amazingly crude AI (like, literally LoS berserkers) if the level design is good enough.

Thirith on 20/8/2013 at 10:17

We probably have different definitions of 'engine'. System Shock 2 didn't have the same gameplay as Thief, though they're in the same engine (by and large - I expect there were major tweaks and customisations). Deus Ex didn't have the same gameplay as Unreal Tournament. That's how I interpreted Brian The Dog's mention of 'engine'.

SubJeff on 20/8/2013 at 12:21

JOURNEY SPOILERS

Quote Posted by Thirith

I absolutely see your point, SE; I just don't subscribe to it, not 100%. Some of my favourite games have had middling, minimal or pretty much inexistent(sic :p) gameplay. I greatly enjoyed The Walking Dead, I'm a big fan of Journey. Reduce those to their gameplay and they suck, no two words about it.

Well you're dead wrong about Journey - the gameplay was wonderful. Especially when you meet up with someone who is on the same wavelength and both fly together, constantly recharging each other. The first time I realised this neither I nor my companion knew before. We had the eureka moment together. It was in the first desert and it was glorious. You can then try to teach other people.

Either way, it was fabulous fun to play.

The Walking Dead is a different type of game. What did you think of the gameplay in Monkey Island? Was it non-existent?

Quote Posted by Vivian

And if she's totally sexually incompatible with you?

Gameplay man, it's important.

Thirith on 20/8/2013 at 12:37

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

JOURNEY SPOILERS

Well you're dead wrong about Journey - the gameplay was wonderful. Especially when you meet up with someone who is on the same wavelength and both fly together, constantly recharging each other. The first time I realised this neither I nor my companion knew before. We had the eureka moment together. It was in the first desert and it was glorious. You can then try to teach other people.

Either way, it was fabulous fun to play.

The Walking Dead is a different type of game. What did you think of the gameplay in Monkey Island? Was it non-existent?

I agree, Journey was tremendous fun. At the same time, I wouldn't call its gameplay wonderful (although I'm not entirely sure myself how much sense it makes to look at game mechanisms in isolation). Take away the atmosphere of the game, the visuals and music, the feel of how tangible the world you're inhabiting is, and I doubt the game would be even a fraction as enjoyable as it is.

In general I'd agree with anyone who criticises the gameplay in adventure games, because it is primitive as anything. Not quite Operation Wolf bad, but definitely far from *good*, interesting, complex or even elegantly simple gameplay. (Journey would fit that category perhaps.) Again, though, I don't think it makes all that much sense to look at gameplay in isolation. Strip Monkey Island of its story, characters and writing, the gameplay would be absolutely dreadful - but as part of the package it is adequate to the extent that it doesn't matter that the gameplay is minimal.

With Thief to date, gameplay mattered. It's not the only thing that mattered - for me personally, the world of the game, the characters, the atmosphere are a large part of what attracted me to the series - but it's entertaining on its own. You could probably create something along the lines of the Metal Gear Solid VR missions for Thief and it'd still be quite enjoyable. Diminish the gameplay and you diminish the game in notable ways. (Not sure how you'd diminish the gameplay in Monkey Island or The Walking Dead - you can construct worse puzzles and situations, but mechanically the games would remain the same.)

However, I can imagine a new Thief that's diminished in terms of gameplay but that is still an enjoyable experience - with a couple of big ifs. If the atmosphere is flawless. If the environments are fantastic. If the story is enjoyable and engaging. If the game works well technically, without major glitches and bugs. If the player can get over the fact that this is supposed to be a Thief title, yet it's a severely hobbled version of Thief.

tl;dr - Gameplay may be king, but a great royal entourage can make up for a lot, even a severely mentally handicapped product of generations of incest quietly dribbling as he's sat on the throne. It's more difficult, though, to overlook the king's 'issues' if the king's father used to be a greatly respected monarch.

Brian The Dog on 20/8/2013 at 12:48

Quote Posted by Vivian

hahahhaaa so you're saying if they made an amazing game you might like it?

I take your point, but the point I was trying to make is that for me personally, I can cope with no Stephen Russell, no Hammers, no rope arrows, no swimming. And so on. For me, if they give a good story in an atmospheric sneaky game, with well-designed levels then I'm in. Others may disagree, but that's fine.

Oh, and I find gameplay a tricky concept to pin down, as it is subjective to the genre and possibly the type of player, so that's why I left it off the list.

SubJeff on 20/8/2013 at 13:00

I'm baffled by your take on this Thirith.

Strip Journey and Thief of their art, sound, story, atmosphere etc and you still have a basic gameplay mechanic that is fun.

You cannot do this with an adventure game because the gameplay IS the story.

Thirith on 20/8/2013 at 13:09

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

It's quite possible you're right, Journey without its non-gameplay elements might still be fun; I simply doubt that it would be, because (at least for me) all of the rest, the art, sound, story and atmosphere, they give context and meaning to the gameplay, and without those I suspect I'd find the gameplay fairly hollow. What makes Journey exhilarating for me cannot be separated from the feel of heat that the desert exudes, or the snow that's flying at me as I climb up the mountain, or the way my partner's shawl flutters as we're both flying.

Saying that in an adventure the gameplay is the story... I'm not sure what you're saying there is all that different from what I'm saying, which is that adventures have minimal, primitive gameplay that serves as a 'story delivery mechanism'. I think the distinction here is mainly one of semantics.