Gray on 23/1/2006 at 03:35

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Wait, wait.. are you telling me religions are somehow different just because they believe in a different version of the same nicely invented fairytale?

That seems... both illogical and confusing... and a certain ground for future conflicts.




I shudder to think of the consequences.

fett on 23/1/2006 at 04:52

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And will continue to be.

So you were saying....?

TheAlbaniac on 23/1/2006 at 09:46

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Maybe it has to do with a need for 'clarity'. Fundamentalist Christians are very...unbendy. They have extreme tunnel vision. Intent on 'knowing the bible and living a godly life', and yet so extremely harsh on issues like homosexuality and abortion.

In the end it always seems more a need for 'clear rules' than anything else. Islam provides that nowadays, mainly because being a Christian remotely the way it's meant to be (as in, imitating Jesus) is not one simple set of clear rules.

I've met two kinds of Christians that can be considered fundamentalist. The one kind wants rules and clarity. I could imagine them converting to Islam. They're not really unlike the pharisees as portrayed in the bible.
The other kind really is trying to be 'godly' and understand that things aren't always clear. That Jesus usually acted contrary to popular belief or a simple set of religious rules, and even dared to simplify the entire law to 'love god and your fellow man'.

Convict on 23/1/2006 at 13:48

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Ok well I guess the author perhaps let emotions cloud his article and got carried away. I suspect he made the unconcious association between these values and America's success and these values and Europe's failure (well it hasn't failed yet but it will with the rise of China and the continuation of its policies as is IMHO). I think the thrust of what is said is that the rise of a religion (which isn't very compatible with other religions or values) is happening in Europe. When I see "According to a poll taken in 2004, over 60% of British Muslims want to live under Shariah--in the United Kingdom" and I also see that "the [CIA] report predicts that Europe’s Muslim population is set to increase from around 13% today to between 22% and 37% of the population by 2025, potentially triggering tensions ((http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=591&id=56762005) The Scotsman) then it seems highly likely that very negative outcomes will occur.



Actually if you look at my records, a few times I have admitted I was wrong in a debate and someone else was right. So I'm obviously not the kind of person you try to portray me as. Might I ask how many times at TTLG you have admitted you were wrong in a debate (or are you always right)?

Also clean up your potty mouth.




Hi Swiss. It'd be easier if you remained serious during debate (instead of making snide comments), but nonetheless...

The thing is that if poverty is considered to cause large families (as opposed to being merely associated) and it is also considered that poverty breeds poverty, then the cycle of having 10 children will continue infinitum.

However to answer your question in a rational way I attempted to find some data, the clearest of which was (however it is from 1981):

(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12311887&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_DocSum)



Um, yes. Have you never read much about different religions?




Are you suggesting that personal attacks are acceptable in debates (that's a yes/no question fett)?



Paz plz note my ninja edit in the first paragraph - info added

Paz on 23/1/2006 at 14:17

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I suspect he made those entirely conscious associations because he has a barely concealed political agenda and wishes to twist the minds of people who can't spot the difference between vaguely objective argument and lousy ranting. Or play to those who are already long lost to rational thought. Like you, for example.

Anyway.

Success/failure measured by what criteria? Economic success? You might want to check out the level of national debt in the US. They look as potentially vulnerable as any Western Capitalist nation to me. You might also consider other measures of 'success' for a nation. How about not having gone to war with anyone for the past decade or so? How about the average standard of living? How about free access to health care?

Whether you consider a nation 'successful' depends entirely upon what terms you use.

Of course, the current Capitalist model is bound to fail eventually - Marx sez (lolé)

OH GOD THERE'S MORE RUBBISH



The first stat, I simply don't believe. There's no sign of that whatsoever, except from a few fringe crazies. I've heard bullshit statistics that 50% of the US believe the world is only 5,000 years old. It's obvious crap which can be discounted by paying any attention to the world whatsoever (the stat, I mean - though also the belief). Likewise, by listening to British Muslim opinion I'm pretty confident that 60% of them do not, in fact, want Shariah law. OR, 60% of them want some aspects of Shariah law or some version of it which isn't completely illiberal - I don't know, I'd have to see the original question which lead to those results really. They're living in the UK - they're not going to fuck up the parts of that they enjoy by introducing some wacky way of living, that wouldn't make any sense.

Practically, it's never going to happen anyway. I don't know how many Muslim MPs there are at present, but I know that none of them stand on a platform of 'Shariah for all!' There is no pressure for this to occur from moderate Muslims. You have been misled.

The second part I also mistrust (population predictions are fine, but hardly accurate if you're guessing 20 years into the future), but mostly I don't care about it. Culture and society changes - it always has and always will; the makeup of the UK has always been totally mongrel. So we might have a larger Muslim slice over the next few years? Oh no! Why is that a problem again? I trust the political structure of the country to resist any extreme religious views which may undermine the lovely social democracy we have going on. It's strong enough not to bend to pressure from Christian nutters (we're treating THOSE PESKY GAYS as human beings - sorry) and it won't bend to pressure from Muslim nutters (women can dress how they like - sorry).

Why the hell would you come to the UK if you had extreme religious views anyway? You're obviously going to be happier somewhere else. Although I expect you believe it's some kind of long-term conspiratorial plan to convert the whole UK, don't you?