Volitions Advocate on 9/11/2009 at 17:25
I was in kindergarten at the time. 5 years old. I didn't care much back then and all I really remember is getting told I was wrong for saying USSR. I don't think i realized the wall had fallen until the Barcelona Olympics when I asked dad why it was "just Germany" now and not east and west.
demagogue on 9/11/2009 at 17:25
Well I just finished my massive book on modern European history (Postwar by Tony Judt), so all these thoughts are swirling together at the anniversary.
The story of the fall of Communism is one of the most interesting stories of modern times that people don't read about. It's a great and unique story for each country, though interrelated and shared too.
The story I read in my book about Germany DDR was how hilariously unintended it was, and ironic ... The wall fell for exactly the same reason it went up! To stop the bleeding of an escaping population. When Hungary's Party gave up power in the summer of 1989 (it had a big Reform movement at just the right time, and got the greenlight after seeing Poland get away with it), it opened its E. German border and 10K's of E Germans poured across it. So the DDR leadership were desparate to get people to stay. They thought if they made getting a visa to the West easier, people could visit and come back, like one of those late-night decisions only half thought out, then some confusion in the press release on just how easy it was ... all without appreciating that once the wall was cracked and people could cross back and forth there was no going back. It was totally a half-assed cynical measure by the old school Communists, not even a Reform thing much less an opposition thing, that spectacularly backfired.
On credit ... while the actual reform movements in each country deserve a huge chunk of credit -- they're the one's that took all the real risks -- it's safe to say the one person who deserves most credit is Gorbachev for not sending the tanks and giving the green light. That whole year of 1989, every little thing that happened, everybody looked immediately to Moscow; it was the looming omnipresent presence. And Communism had practically nil popularity in E. Europe from the beginning and would have fallen in 1948 except for Soviet tanks, throughout the 50's purges and in 1956's Hungarian Revolution except for Soviet tanks, in 1968's Prague Spring except for Soviet tanks, in 1981's Warsaw labor reforms except for the threat of Soviet tanks, and it actually did in 1989 when Solidarity freakishly won every free seat available in Poland's desparate (half-)free election in June, everyone held their breath watching Gorbachev, who had his own domestic issues with selling Reform Communism, and he didn't send tanks to not torpedo his own rhetoric ... and people didn't realize European Communism was a sitting duck then and there, just waiting for the kill. (Except in China where they didn't care what Gorby thought and had no qualms rolling tanks into Tienemman Sq to indiscriminately mow down students.) As my book says, this was Gorbechev's revolution.
Edit -- oh, as for where I was when the Berlin Wall fell. I was 13, in typical US suburbia, and watched the news constantly through the whole thing. I really got caught up into the whole "history is changing before our eyes" thing, and loved the songs that were coming out like Right Here, Right Now, and I'm sure I wrote a lot of middle-schoolish poetry on it -- may seem cheesy now, but it was easy to be inspired then. I think what I liked most was the fact I could actually meet people from E. Europe and the former USSR now and become friends with them and talk about their home ... which happily I have now. I think that's the one legacy of it, the actual opening-up part, that for me at least was the most lasting, least tarnished, and made me happiest about it.
june gloom on 9/11/2009 at 17:55
I was, what, 7? I didn't care about anything that didn't involve Michaelangelo (the turtle, not the artist) or Mario.
In retrospect, though, I certainly care now.
N'Al on 9/11/2009 at 19:00
Quote Posted by demagogue
On credit ... while the actual reform movements in each country deserve a huge chunk of credit -- they're the one's that took all the real risks -- it's safe to say the one person who deserves most credit is Gorbachev for not sending the tanks and giving the green light. That whole year of 1989, every little thing that happened, everybody looked immediately to Moscow; it was the looming omnipresent presence. And Communism had practically nil popularity in E. Europe from the beginning and would have fallen in 1948 except for Soviet tanks, throughout the 50's purges and in 1956's Hungarian Revolution except for Soviet tanks, in 1968's Prague Spring except for Soviet tanks, in 1981's Warsaw labor reforms except for the threat of Soviet tanks, and it actually did in 1989 when Solidarity freakishly won every free seat available in Poland's desparate (half-)free election in June, everyone held their breath watching Gorbachev, who had his own domestic issues with selling Reform Communism, and he didn't send tanks to not torpedo his own rhetoric ... and people didn't realize European Communism was a sitting duck then and there, just waiting for the kill. (Except in China where they didn't care what Gorby thought and had no qualms rolling tanks into Tienemman Sq to indiscriminately mow down students.) As my book says, this was Gorbechev's revolution.
On that note, a pretty interesting article (
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14793729) here, imo.
Rug Burn Junky on 9/11/2009 at 19:02
'89-'90 was a formative year for me... I was 16, and by a happy coincidence, my father had received an overseas assignment to Germany through IBM that year. On top of which, I was going to an American school on an Army base. I pretty much had as much of a front row seat as an American could have. We took trips to Berlin soon thereafter, and it was eye-opening. Even with the Wall down, the formalities of the border were still observed, and we were still nervous going through Checkpoint Charlie, or buying DDR Marks on the black market.
Still remember the fast food carts in East Berlin (making me long for NYC dirty water dogs) with horribly bland wursts, and the same sauce used as both ketchup and pizza sauce. Spent a whole day at a remote section of the wall, chipping off souvenirs - had a blister for days from the sledge hammer. I have pounds and pounds of it in my attic at home, and I still have the Soviet army hat that I bought off of a guard for $2. The joints at that section of the wall had been chipped off enough that you could slip through, and I was able to spraypaint my name on virgin wall on the East German side, and climb up in an abandoned guard tower. Very vivid memory of taking a piss on the wall with "Holidays in the Sun" playing on my walkman.
On top of that, I was taking an incredibly interesting, and ahead of its time, class in school. It was a small experimental internet class, in which schools from around the world roleplayed a different nation, Model UN style, through ongoing correspondence with other nations. The class was devoted specifically to the Arab-Israeli conflict, but quickly detoured into the events in Eastern Europe. With our school taking on the role of the USSR (with 16 or so schools, this was a coveted role), obviously we took a lead role. I was specifically roleplaying Dmitri Yazov (the only-marginally-competent Defense Minister of the Soviet Union, described as unfit to command more than a single division, and later arrested for his role in the Russian Coup. Notable in his biography for his "bushy eyebrows" I always pictured him looking like Thufir Hawat in David Lynch's Dune). I hung on, and analyzed and reacted to, every news story, with the added fun of trying to predict the next steps, and propose my own solutions.
All that said, it's ridiculous to say that Gorbachev or Reagan was responsible for the Wall falling. We all know that it was David Hasselhoff. Shut up.
OK, seriously - I agree with demagogue about Gorbachev, and I think that Reagan's influence has always been overblown. That said, the usual narrative of "Reagan was a great and strong Cold Warrior who upped the arms race to the point where it bankrupted the Soviet Union" is exaggerated, but there's a kernel of truth to it - having more to do with A) the unsustainability of the USSR's economy regardless of our own policies, B) policies in place long before Reagan ever sniffed office, and C) his own conciliatory measures ratcheting back the arms race at just the right time (even if he blew it at Reykjavik, that really set the stage), rather than his tear-down-this-wall bluster.
Gorbachev was the keystone, but he couldn't have managed the Soviet reform (leading to the fall of eastern European communism) if Reagan hadn't been as receptive and pragmatic in his reactions. To say Reagan had precious little to do with it is disingenuous (and that's coming from someone like me, who is as hellbent as anyone on knocking down the ridiculous exaggerations of Reagan's very damaging legacy).
Credit where credit's due - the environment in which the peaceful fall of the Soviet empire occurred would not have been possible if Reagan had made any other rather easy missteps - like, say for instance, listening to the hawkish members of his second administration, or Nixon and Kissinger. Do you have any doubt that W would have blown the whole thing with some ridiculous cowboyish policy that undermined everything?
And obviously, Bush the Elder played his cards right as well and deserves praise (if not credit) for his handling of the situation. The dominos were already falling, but he could have easily planted himself under a few of them.
rachel on 9/11/2009 at 20:24
Quote Posted by N'Al
This is incorrect. It was, in fact, a Frenchman who did it, as this photo clearly proves. ;)
[ATTACH]212[/ATTACH]
According to my source it is the same man who stood on Tian Anmen Square a few months before.
Rumors that he took the famous picture of Armstrong on the Moon could not be verified but he's so awesome it would not surprise me in the least.
</sarcasm>
In other news people just blasted his report to pieces by digging up old records and verifying that this photo was actually taken two weeks later on the 16th. BUFFOON=OWNED.
:laff:
Sgt_BFG on 9/11/2009 at 21:32
This thread needs more David Hasselhoff
june gloom on 9/11/2009 at 22:18
Quote Posted by Rug Burn Junky
Very vivid memory of taking a piss on the wall with "Holidays in the Sun" playing on my walkman.
This right here? Crowning moment of awesome.
Rufus on 9/11/2009 at 23:19
I was 9 at that time and I remember clearly hearing the news on radio. I tought about our friends in the DDR and tried to imagine what they were doing at the moment. Then I think I asked my Mom if we could visit them right now. I was always scared by the guards at the border. They were the first men I saw had machineguns. So I hoped they would be gone now.
Quote Posted by Sgt_BFG
This thread needs more David Hasselhoff
There you go.
Inline Image:
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1781/hasselhoffh.jpg