SD on 2/11/2007 at 16:36
Quote Posted by Thief13x
income gets taxed, but taxes don't cover the costs because of their overall lower incomes. The difference is significant enough to make the annual cost go from $10 billion to $30 billion dollars...these arn't small numbers. This country's income tax assumes a certain average salary. Add 12 million people with equal cost to the government but very low income-tax revenue and suddenly you have substantially shifted the average income, and hence, the government's net income.
Your 'math' is all wrong, but I don't know if I have the patience to explain it.
Okay. You claim that lower average wages means that the government's net tax intake is lower. Essentially you're saying that illegal immigrants cost the USA more money than they contribute.
The first thing you're ignoring is that less money spent on wages means more money saved for the firms who hire them. Doesn't this extra profit count for something? If the CEO of Fat Bastards Inc is only spending $100k on wages instead of $200k, then that $100k saving doesn't disappear from the economy, surely?
Secondly, there's the money that these immigrants spend. What do you think they live on - fresh air? No, they buy food, accommodation, fuel, clothes etc etc just like you and me. Presumably you don't think this extra money in the economy counts for anything either.
Clearly illegal immigrants who don't work aren't contributing a lot, but then thnat's not what you're talking about here.
If you have any particularly convincing evidence that the general rule "more workers = bigger economy" doesn't apply in this instance, then by all means point us in that direction so we can weigh it up, but until then, you probably should cut down on the thinly-veiled xenophobic scapegoating you're indulging in right here in this thread.
[EDIT: it appears from the posts that sprung up while I was writing this response that Thief13x actually accepts that more workers is better for the economy, but that government take is reduced as a consequence! So since when was smaller government a bad thing? Surely more money in people's pockets is better than more taxes in the government coffers?]
Mingan on 2/11/2007 at 16:47
...but, but, if the government has less net income, how will they pay for their War On Stuff?
Thief13x on 2/11/2007 at 16:51
Quote Posted by SD
Essentially you're saying that illegal immigrants cost the USA more money than they contribute.
]
NO! where did I say that?
Quote Posted by SD
If the CEO of Fat Bastards Inc is only spending $100k on wages instead of $200k, then that $100k saving doesn't disappear from the economy, surely?
]
no, it goes into bread
Quote Posted by SD
[EDIT: it appears from the posts that sprung up while I was writing this response that Thief13x actually accepts that more workers is better for the economy, but that government take is reduced as a consequence! So since when was smaller government a bad thing? Surely more money in people's pockets is better than more taxes in the government coffers?
]
right, I was talking about government spending, not necessarily economical impact.
since when does more government spending = a smaller government? maybe I'm missing something. More government spending = higher taxes. Essentially, we're going to be paying taxes to support criminals and that pisses me off.
SD on 2/11/2007 at 17:01
Quote Posted by Thief13x
since when does more government spending = a smaller government? maybe I'm missing something.
Yes you numbskull, of course you're missing something. You're missing the fact that while government spending goes up, tax take (and therefore spending)
per capita comes down.
Quote:
From what I understand, more government spending = higher taxes. Essentially, we're going to be paying taxes to support criminals.
I really don't see how, unless the criminals you're talking about wear suits and work for the likes of Halliburton.
Thief13x on 2/11/2007 at 17:11
Quote Posted by SD
Yes you numbskull, of course you're missing something. You're missing the fact that while government spending goes up, tax take (and therefore spending)
per capita comes down.
I really don't see how, unless the criminals you're talking about wear suits and work for the likes of Halliburton.
WHENEVER the government needs money, they raise taxes...true or false? I don't know what country you're from but increased local and federal spending in the US means they RAISE taxes, not the otherway around. And I still don't understand how the fuck that makes the government smaller.
And yess illegal immigrants are just that..
illegal which according to DICTIONARY.COM
Quote:
1. forbidden by law or statute.
Quote:
CRIMINAL: a person guilty or convicted of a crime.
Quote:
CRIME: an action or an instance of negligence that is deemed injurious to the public welfare or morals or to the interests of the state and that is
legally prohibited.my god i need a smoke
Starrfall on 2/11/2007 at 17:28
Quote Posted by Thief13x
Washington Post vs Chicago Tribune...tonight! lol
Your article has information about a hypothesis, and you are citing the article as proof of that hypothesis. This article contains actual statements and I am citing it to show the statements were made. There's a difference.
It may be reasonable to conclude that amnesty would increase costs overall but just because you once read about a report that says so doesn't mean it's a fact and doesn't even add much to the balance of evidence if there's similar evidence directly to the contrary.
AxTng1 on 2/11/2007 at 18:13
Quote Posted by Dictionary.com
Law: the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision.
But... these are made up by people, and can be changed by people!
I would hope that if whatever passes for government in your area decides that it is for the best, the status of "illegal" immigrants might be reconsidered. Or is it a commandment?
XI: Thou shalt not travel from the lands of your fathers, unless Thief13x says it's ok.catbarf on 2/11/2007 at 19:02
Quote Posted by Stitch
Bullshit.
Why? Are you honestly telling me one of the following is true:
1. They do pay taxes, despite being ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?
2. They don't use roads, schools, or benefit from police/fire/medical services AT ALL?
Infidel on 2/11/2007 at 19:42
All this runs down to a simple equation: How much can certain entities make through illegals and how much do they cost and who has to pay up for it?
If you are a corporate farmer and harvesting a field costs you $100/day with illegals and $500/day with legals, what would you do?
Yes, illegals use roads, breathe air, frequent emergency rooms, but you as an employer could be relatively safe to assume in the last decades, that nobody will get after you for the incurred costs.
It is my opinion that a country that quietly tolerates illegal employment on a large scale has a responsibility to those people and pay up for their medical and social needs. If you want that money back or if you don't want to pay, then get to the root of the problem: Go after those employing illegals and fine them - make employing illegals an unviable option.
But this wasn't and isn't in the interest of those who are rich, influential and benefitting from the illegals. They have the power and means to influence the government to stay lax about enforcing illegal employment laws and will just for show go here and again after a couple of Mexicans swimming through the Rio Grande, well knowing that the next night those will be back.
In the end, and this is where I grant Heretic to be correct, this is bad for the illegals and Americans from the low income group who try to find minimum wage employment: The illegals get an unjust small amount for their work that barely keeps them alive and the poor Americans can't keep up with them.
The poor are pitted against the poorer here.
I'd just like for some of you to recognize that and realize that these illegals don't force themselves on an unwilling USA, but that there is a system that actively exploits their labor.
Stitch on 2/11/2007 at 19:44
Quote Posted by catbarf
They do pay taxes, despite being ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS?
Two thirds do, with no prospect of getting Social Security or Medicare benefits.
Your argument is a load of horseshit.
