Ringer on 15/1/2009 at 10:53
meh who cares about this conflict, Hamas started it...I could think of more important things to fight over then a patch of desert with a few rocks strewn over the place....
A tropical island full of semi clad women...Now that is worth fighting over...
june gloom on 15/1/2009 at 16:17
Quote Posted by Nicker
If, by your reasoning, the owner of a mall can determine the conduct of its patrons, why cannot the owner of an apartment building do the same? What makes an apartment so much different that freedom of speech extends to it but not the mall?
If the apartment owner establishes a rule about no flags or anything political from the window/balcony/etc., then that's his right (though there will probably be a court fight over it.)
I don't know what rules that apartment in Germany had, but they were certainly not cause for police breaking down the fellow's door like he was running a meth lab or something.
denisv on 15/1/2009 at 16:52
They'd probably need a court order for that one.
DaBeast on 15/1/2009 at 18:43
Wasn't there a thread some time last year about a cop who busted into a couples home, I vaguely remember it had something to do with a flag or something.
The upside down flag stars & stripes maybe?
@dethtoll: American cops do dumb things too.
Anyway, if the german cops didn't remove the flag, and I'm sure they asked nicely but the dude was being a dick, then it could quite possibly have provoked a incident. Is it not recklessness to just allow it to happen?
edit: Now with reduced flame!
ercles on 15/1/2009 at 18:53
DaBeast I think you might be missing the part were this is more about Kolya than German police officers.
heywood on 15/1/2009 at 19:39
I'm with Chimpy on this. The police shouldn't abandon their duty to protect individual rights and enforce the law just because appeasing an angry mob seems like the easier approach. You shouldn't EVER enter someone's residence and confiscate their property without the legal right to do so (ie. a warrant). Haven't our freedoms eroded enough already?
It's the fault of the protesters if they become violent, and then the police have a responsibility to deal with the violence and control the protesters. After all, their job is to enforce the law, not mob rule.
The US mall incident is also cut & dry IMO. Unless the mall had a posted written policy or dress code that clearly disallowed the T-shirt, then the mall management and the police acted wrongly. And if they did have such a policy, it should be challenged in court because a business cannot legally discriminate against certain customers on the basis of their political views.
And regarding Israel and Palestine, forgive me for not caring anymore. I'm saving my sympathy for those who deserve it.
Thirith on 15/1/2009 at 19:53
Quote Posted by heywood
And regarding Israel and Palestine, forgive me for not caring anymore. I'm saving my sympathy for those who deserve it.
Which sounds very much like you don't make a distinction between the group and the individual. You think that none of the hundreds of Palestinians who have died in the attacks were deserving of sympathy, or the Israeli killed in suicide bombings?
Call me a pretentious, self-righteous wanker, but as far as I'm concerned it's absolutely central to our humanity to make the distinction between some faceless group of Foreigners Of Questionable Ideology and the individuals that tend to end up at the receiving end of acts of war.
Edit: It's fair enough that you don't want to care about Israel and Palestine and what's going on there at the moment. Most of us have a limited amount of sympathy, which is normal, and we all have to choose who to bestow it on. But if you try to sell it as "They don't deserve sympathy, the fuckers!", then that pretty much makes you a reductive dick.
heywood on 16/1/2009 at 02:16
When people make a bad decision and something bad happens to them, I feel sorry. When they make the same bad decision and get hurt again, I feel a little less sorry. And when they continue to chose the same path over and over again, eventually they exhaust my sympathy.
It will be a great day when the Israeli and Palestinian populations collectively decide to pursue peace. Until then, there are repressed peoples all around the world that deserve the world's attention, outrage, and sympathy much more than the Israelis and Palestinians.
Nicker on 16/1/2009 at 03:08
Quote Posted by dethtoll
If the apartment owner establishes a rule about no flags or anything political from the window/balcony/etc., then that's his right (though there will probably be a court fight over it.)
I don't know what rules that apartment in Germany had, but they were certainly not cause for police breaking down the fellow's door like he was running a meth lab or something.
Never rented an apartment, eh? Most of them do have restrictions in the lease, often about the use of only the approved and provided draperies being allowed in windows (to preserve a consistent look for the building) and of what objects may and may not be kept on balconies. More importantly (at the risk of repeating myself) one's lease does not entitle one to expose others in the building to danger or even annoyance.
Yes, the mob was responsible for its actions, to become violent. That doesn't relieve the landlord or the police from acting to preserve the safety of the tenants. As long as you cannot suggest a workable and ethically superior alternative to their action, your arguments have done nothing but to support my original assertion.
sh0ck3r on 16/1/2009 at 03:30
Quote Posted by heywood
And regarding Israel and Palestine, forgive me for not caring anymore. I'm saving my sympathy for those who deserve it.
What a great little fascist remark!:thumb:
Quote Posted by heywood
Until then, there are repressed peoples all around the world that deserve the world's attention, outrage, and sympathy much more than the Israelis and Palestinians.
Who? Not the Africans, whose repeated mistakes necessarily preclude your sympathy.
Ok, I figured it out.:idea: All your sympathy lies with the North Koreans.
