Gambit on 12/1/2009 at 23:08
Well...
It´s going on since the end of december. More than 10 israeli casualties, more than 800 palestine casualties. Israel and Hamas are rejecting ONU´s treaty for peace. There´s an increasing international pressure against Israel because of the bombing of a UN school and because the Red Cross appeal for humanitarian aid is not progressing.
Analists are complaying that the Gaza innocents are dying only because...Israeli party in power wants to win the next election, Hamas wants to grow in power and popularity against Fatah, Iran wants more influence in the land against Egypt and Saudi Arabia.
My questions are...
1) Shouldn´t Bush get more involved by now or is he just waiting for the presidential take over ?
2) Will Israel manage to defeat Hamas or are they entering a no-win situation that may destroy their international image ?
3) Shouldn´t goverments be much more vocal about the humanitarian disaster that is going on Gaza ?
Scots Taffer on 12/1/2009 at 23:22
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Fingernail on 12/1/2009 at 23:24
I thought future sailors was the name of the israeli army :confused:
demagogue on 12/1/2009 at 23:40
Either you didn't see or didn't want to perpetuate the other (badly named) (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124706) thread on this topic.
(Edit: Already two responses - well, that's what I get for writing a long post. I think if the threads are merged, though, they should go under the title of this one.)
Anyway, not a specialist but I studied in Haifa Israel in 1997 and minored in MidEast studies, went into int'l law, and all that.
My sense from reading things is ...
1. Egypt has been trying to take the lead on negotiations so far (today in fact); there really isn't a place for the Bush administration or the US like in times past ... I think for one because they won't have any credibility/influence with Hamas. If it were negotiating with the Palestinian Authority then the US would have a bigger role I think. Well, for that matter, the US administration has a policy "no negotiation with Hamas". So that's basically half your answer.
2. Israel is already declaring a victory. Two weeks ago Hamas was firing 200 rockets/day. Now it's less than 20/day, and falling off fast. That's the main thing they cared about. Keep in mind for most Israelis (my impression anyway), the status quo is relatively "tolerable", so victory is just stopping the rockets. They aren't the ones that have to suffer awful living standards, and I get the feeling a lot of them would like to close their eyes and pretend Gaza and the WBank weren't there, and fall into political neglect; and when the rockets aren't firing, they just about can. It's just the Palestinians where the concept of "loss" has a real, visceral meaning.
Israel also claims Hamas in Gaza has already signaled absolute surrender (not the leadership in exile, though). It comes down to what happens in Cairo today how it will settle. The NYTimes was saying either the war basically ends very soon (next few days) or it enters a 3rd stage where the reservists come up and they enter the Egyptian border area to shut down the secret tunnels, and I think they indicated that would be within a month.
As for their image; well, historically Israel has always been vilified internationally (cf the UN Resolution "Zionism=racism"), and developed a culture of not caring when they perceived their security was at stake. But here they are making an effort to watch their image more, setting up inquiries into every allegation the int'l community throws at them. But it's hard to break the old culture. They'll take a hit. The bigger problem IMO is to what extent it sets the 2-state solution back. In a sense, it doesn't matter what the rest of the world thinks because they don't have to live next to Israel forever. But it's very important how Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, and the Palestinians come out of this, how it affects the dynamics among them in the near future.
3. A lot of international organizations are being very vocal about the crisis, and a number of gov'ts as well. It might not be getting as much air-time? But one issue with the governments is they have to be somewhat strategic with what they say. The Arab countries (esp Egypt and Jordan) need to be careful because they don't want to threaten their own stability with Israel, and don't want to be responsible for the Palestinians in ways that have historically rocked their internal stability. People from Europe should speak about their own states, but I have a feeling since the EU entered the world stage as a more major player, Europe likes its role as a kind of world ombudsman, and they're taking some part in the diplomacy so will talk in more balanced terms. And the US has its historic link to Israel and influential Jewish constituency, obviously.
TTK12G3 on 12/1/2009 at 23:49
Quote Posted by Scots Taffer
PREPARE FOR THREAD MERGE!PREPARING FOR THREAD MERGE, CAPTAIN!STEADY AS SHE GOES!AYE, STEADY CAP'N!HOLD FAST!
HOLLLLLLLLLLLLD FAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSST!!!MERGING DELAYED FOR 24 HOURS. THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
fett on 13/1/2009 at 03:05
Can someone just repost all my stuff from the other thread here. Except switch the words "Israelis" and "Palestinains" around.
Turtle on 13/1/2009 at 03:59
Quote Posted by demagogue
Either you didn't see or didn't want to perpetuate the other (badly named) (
http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124706) thread on this topic.
(Edit: well, that's what I get for writing a long post. I think if the threads are merged, though, they should go under the title of this one.)
Fuck that and fuck you.:mad:
