Draxil on 14/10/2023 at 16:16
It’s nice to see that Tocky and I can agree on something 100%. I wonder if Starker and his “both sides are bad” friends, in 1944, would have been decrying the disproportionate death toll among American and German children, or would have been calling for restraint in our efforts against the Axis powers.
Because that’s what this is equivalent to—Hamas has perpetrated acts that would have given Auschwitz soldiers scruples. Israel is fighting an enemy that hides among a civilian populace in order to increase the death toll of their own people. Starker, heywood, your moral relativism is disgusting. Hamas is evil—it really is that simple. The same is true of their Iranian backers. There is no negotiating with them, no reasoning with them, and “I absolutely condemn Hamas terrorism, but…” is far from an absolute condemnation. Don’t fucking “condemn" something then try to offer any rationalization for it. Man up and blame Israel for the beheaded babies like you want to.
Hamas is responsible for the Israeli dead and the Palestinian dead, just as Nazi Germany was responsible for the dead in Poland and in Dresden or Berlin. You can’t negotiate with rabid animals that only want your destruction; it didn’t work with Chamberlain, it won’t work with Hamas or the Ayatollah.
Speaking of the ol’ Ayatollah—Iran funds Hamas, Hezbollah, and supplies the Russians, Chinese, and North Koreans with oil/tech. Why on Earth is anyone in the western world still dealing with them? Forget the $6 billion that Biden gave them—their oil exports have increased 650% in the last few years. I think it’s past time to treat them like the pariah they are and enforce the sanctions against them so hard that the Ayatollah is looking through his cushions for change to pay the Revolutionary Guard. I believe the Iranian people are about done with his crap, and starving his regime while supporting some good old fashioned uprisings would be a great way to remove some fuel from the fire in the Middle East. The cynic in me thinks that Biden is too afraid of what cutting the world off from Iranian oil would do to gas prices and his reelection chances to even consider it.
Draxil on 14/10/2023 at 16:21
You know, if someone is jumping on a news article that was printed right after an event happened and using it as proof of Israeli evil, to me it smells like anti-semitism. That truck was probably still burning when they posted that article, and you declined to quote the part where the IDF official denied knowledge of air strikes in that area and said they would investigate. You also decline to mention that the truck was struck nearly 2 hours after the safe passage timeline issued by the IDF expired-- i.e., a large truck is barreling down the road well outside the time when safe passage was guaranteed. Not sure I'd want to wait for it to get to a checkpoint to see if it's just carrying kids or 500 lb of ANFO barrells. Your anti-semitism is showing, Starker, and it's putrid.
RippedPhreak on 14/10/2023 at 16:34
I doubt anyone here is truly antisemitic, but there is a tendency in lib/leftist thought to boil everything down to oppressor/oppressed, or colonizer versus the colonized. Once Israel was placed in the Oppressor/Colonizer barrel, that was that. No sympathy for anything that might happen to them.
It's simplistic black and white thinking of course, but it's an easy way for Communist college professors to get their students riled up for protests.
No one ever remembers that Arab Muslims colonized Palestine in the year 638 via military force. Are they colonizers/oppressors too?
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 16:35
Quote Posted by Draxil
Forget the $6 billion that Biden gave them—their oil exports have increased 650% in the last few years. I think it's past time to treat them like the pariah they are and enforce the sanctions against them so hard that the Ayatollah is looking through his cushions for change to pay the Revolutionary Guard. I believe the Iranian people are about done with his crap, and starving his regime while supporting some good old fashioned uprisings would be a great way to remove some fuel from the fire in the Middle East. The cynic in me thinks that Biden is too afraid of what cutting the world off from Iranian oil would do to gas prices and his reelection chances to even consider it.
Oh we don't agree on everything. The $6 billion was not given to them. It was theirs already. It was frozen assets. And Biden did not unfreeze them. Obama did. And it was not without restriction on the use of it. Matter of fact, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think it has been spent to this day. The restriction placed on it was that it could only be used for medicine, food, and humanitarian purposes and for whatever reason they have not chosen to do that.
Also gee why would Biden not want gas prices to go up? It's not like it would be the first thing Republicans would use against him in the upcoming election right? No. Republicans wouldn't do that. Maybe after the fat playground bully with the ties to Russia loses something can be done. Maybe things are being worked on right now. Maybe thinking those things out ahead of time is even better than rushing where angels fear to tread.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 16:57
Thinking that the killing of children is bad, that the targeting of civilians is bad is not moral relativism. It's called having moral principles. However, thinking that killing children of one ethnicity is bad while the killing of children of another ethnicity is justified or necessary -- now that is moral relativism. Saying that only the victims on one side deserved it, that's moral relativism.
I have just as much sympathy for the civilians suffering from Hamas attacks. I have no problem condemning Hamas or in fact any organisation in Palestine that commits acts of terror. Screw them. If they get killed or worse, I don't even spare a thought for them.
When I talk about the killing of children, what I'm talking about is the inherent injustness of collective punishment -- the killing of people based on not what they did, but who they can be grouped in with.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 17:08
But nobody is saying the killing of children is not bad for either side. Just that Hamas has shown that they have to be stopped. You keep trying to couch it in terms of these brown people verses these other shade lighter but not always sometimes ever darker brown people. Nobody else has done that.
Hopefully Hamas won't use meat shields but I doubt it. They have never shown any morality before. Israel knows that the world is looking to condemn them at any false step. What is it you expect of them?
Aja on 14/10/2023 at 17:08
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
It's simplistic black and white thinking of course, but it's an easy way for Communist college professors to get their students riled up for protests.
The only people in this thread claiming that the issue is black and white are the unwavering defenders of Israel.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 17:23
But isn't it a little funny that Israel is the only nation that could have sustained the sort of horrible attack they did and then have so many condemn them for it? I'll say this for the Palestinians, they have the best propaganda team in the world.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 17:25
Quote Posted by Tocky
But nobody is saying the killing of children is not bad for either side. Just that Hamas has shown that they have to be stopped. You keep trying to couch it in terms of these brown people verses these other shade lighter but not always sometimes ever darker brown people. Nobody else has done that.
Hopefully Hamas won't use meat shields but I doubt it. They have never shown any morality before. Israel knows that the world is looking to condemn them at any false step. What is it you expect of them?
But people are justifying the killing of Palestinian civilians when they say things like, "The Israeli military is only doing what's necessary, nothing more," or even, "They (Palestinians as a whole) are only getting what they asked for."
What do I expect Israel will do? I expect Israel will go overboard and target Palestinians indiscriminately without any regard to where this will lead to. And I expect things to escalate. There are already flare-ups of settler violence in the West Bank. It will only get worse from here. Of course, I would want more sober heads to prevail, but if history is teaching us anything, this won't happen.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 17:46
But that is still correct. Israel has to invade to have any chance of getting Hamas militants. Do you want them to just let them go and keep the hostages they are no doubt torturing and raping at this very moment? Justifying? There is no justifying. It's just acceptance of reality. What happened to them was horrible and I've seen more justifying of that.
I think you have too little regard for Israel. I think Palestinian propaganda has worked too well on you. I'm certain there is incredible anger and I hope things will not escalate and Palestinians will finally learn not to support groups like Hamas but I don't expect that. I expect Israel will find some of Hamas and they will find the hostages dead. There will be Palestinian deaths. No way around some of it. Various organizations will condemn Israel. Then Israel will build a bigger wall with better security that they will be condemned for. Those that attack it or them will be killed. They always have the option not to attack and be killed by Israel but won't take that option.
It's not justification. It's not justice even. It's what they have to do. But I too hope there are better and cooler heads among those who must do it.
