Starker on 14/10/2023 at 03:41
Quote Posted by Tocky
Got more response to attack that you consider the same as attack? Don't bother. The original attack and not the response to it matters way more and you will never see that. I understand that. Israel does too.
I have lots of examples, yes. I know that it will fall on deaf ears, but I just want to highlight the hypocrisy. I'm quite willing to condemn the attacks on civilians on both sides, the killing of children on both sides, use of human shields on both sides. You, on the other hand, think that Israel can do no wrong and that the abundantly documented killings and other human rights abuses are all justified somehow, because either Israel would never do that or that they are a proportional response.
Here's, for example, Amnesty international's report on the 2009 operation Cast Lead:
Quote:
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https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/015/2009/en/)
At 11.30am on 27 December 2008, without warning, Israeli forces began a devastating bombing campaign on the Gaza Strip codenamed Operation “Cast Lead”. Its stated aim was to end rocket attacks into Israel by armed groups affiliated with Hamas and other Palestinian factions. By 18 January 2009, when unilateral ceasefires were announced by both Israel and Hamas, some 1,400 Palestinians had been killed, including some 300 children and hundreds of other unarmed civilians, and large areas of Gaza had been razed to the ground, leaving many thousands homeless and the already dire economy in ruins.
Much of the destruction was wanton and resulted from direct attacks on civilian objects as well as indiscriminate attacks that failed to distinguish between legitimate military targets and civilian objects. Such attacks violated fundamental provisions of international humanitarian law, notably the prohibition on direct attacks on civilians and civilian objects (the principle of distinction), the prohibition on indiscriminate or disproportionate attacks, and the prohibition on collective punishment. Hundreds of civilians were killed in attacks carried out using high-precision weapons - air- delivered bombs and missiles, and tank shells. Others, including women and children, were shot at short range when posing no threat to the lives of the Israeli soldiers. Aerial bombardments launched from Israeli F-16 combat aircraft targeted and destroyed civilian homes without warning, killing and injuring scores of their inhabitants, often while they slept. Children playing on the roofs of their homes or in the street and other civilians going about their daily business, as well as medical staff attending the wounded were killed in broad daylight by Hellfire and other highly accurate missiles launched from helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs), or drones, and by precision projectiles fired from tanks.
[...]
Even though Israeli officials knew from the first days of Operation “Cast Lead” that civilians were killed and wounded in significant numbers, Israeli forces continued to employ the same tactics for the entire duration of the 22-day offensive, resulting in growing numbers of civilian casualties. The pattern of attacks and the resulting high number of civilian fatalities and casualties showed elements of reckless conduct, disregard for civilian lives and property and a consistent failure to distinguish between military targets and civilians and civilian objects.
Thousands of civilian homes, businesses and public buildings were destroyed. In some areas entire neighbourhoods were flattened and livestock killed. Much of the destruction was wanton and deliberate, and was carried out in a manner and circumstances which indicated that it could not be justified on grounds of military necessity. Rather, it was often the result of reckless and indiscriminate attacks, which were seemingly tolerated or even directly sanctioned up the chain of command, and which at times appeared intended to collectively punish local residents for the actions of armed groups.
[...]
In several cases Israeli soldiers also used civilians, including children, as “human shields”, endangering their lives by forcing them to remain in or near houses which they took over and used as military positions. Some were forced to carry out dangerous tasks such as inspecting properties or objects suspected of being booby-trapped. Soldiers also took position and launched attacks from and around inhabited houses, exposing local residents to the danger of attacks or of being caught in the crossfire.
And now the cycle begins again.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 03:55
Nah. What I think is that the attacker is to blame for the attack. Proportional response? What fucking good does that do? Palestinians don't understand that when they kill one Israel kills two. Why would proportional response matter in such a situation? You really think killing one for one makes a difference? Seriously? DON'T ATTACK IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is the only thing that will make a difference. Until that is done then all the rest is garbage.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 04:03
Yes, because killing members of a group of people always makes them see sense. That must be why the Troubles went on so long -- not enough killing on both sides, apparently, by your logic.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 04:08
You still do not understand that attackers are not the same as those being attacked. If you can't understand that simple thing then talking to you is futile.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 04:25
Let's put this in terms you can understand. You attack me and I will kill you. I don't give a damn if you see sense in that or not. I will live. You will not. Do you understand that attacking me is not a good idea yet? Tough. I'm a damn good shot. If you didn't attack me then you would be alive to understand. SO STOP ATTACKING.
Can't figure that out? Then you will die. Hard for you to understand? Tough. You will die anyway. Killing on both sides hard for you to understand? Figure it out. Killing is not going to work out for you. Make peace or die.
Jason Moyer on 14/10/2023 at 04:47
Israel's treatment of Palestinians bad, Hamas bad, etc. etc. You can argue in circles about it like everyone has been for 100 years. What I'd like at this point is for someone smarter than I am to propose a solution.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 04:49
In 1939, Germany attacked Poland. A little bit later, Russia also attacked Poland. They both occupied Poland until Germany betrayed Russia and went to war with them, ultimately losing.
Now, was Germany the bad guy for attacking Russia, and Russia the good guy because they were attacked? Of course not. Both sides were evil. And both sides had a lot of innocent civilians who suffered under their regimes' mad ambitions. This is our history in this part of the world and this is why we can see more than just black and white.
Heywood put it very well when they said earlier in this thread that this conflict doesn't have a good side and a bad side, it has two bad sides with captive populations. The one guy who came perhaps closest in the peace process, prime minister Rabin wasn't killed by a Palestinian. He was killed by an Israeli radical who didn't want peace.
And now there is this guy in Israel, one of the right-wing loonies who once stole Rabin's car hood ornament and declared, "We got to his car, and we'll get to him too." He is someone who was member of the Israeli terrorist organisation Kach and had on the wall of his living room a portrait of a well known terrorist who committed a large scale massacre of muslims. You know who this guy is today? Why, he is only the Minister of National Security. This is the kind of leadership Israel has today.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 05:06
Quote Posted by Tocky
Let's put this in terms you can understand. You attack me and I will kill you. I don't give a damn if you see sense in that or not. I will live. You will not. Do you understand that attacking me is not a good idea yet? Tough. I'm a damn good shot. If you didn't attack me then you would be alive to understand. SO STOP ATTACKING.
Can't figure that out? Then you will die. Hard for you to understand? Tough. You will die anyway. Killing on both sides hard for you to understand? Figure it out. Killing is not going to work out for you. Make peace or die.
Yes, I understand that raw violence is the language in many parts of the world. In the US, you can get killed merely for knocking on someone's door and they will feel justified to do that. It's not like that in Europe. In part because we have a long history of cycles of violence. We were the ones who pretty much invented blood feuds. But this is also why there are laws now to prevent such cycles, and we talk in terms of justice, not in terms of retribution.
You, on the other hand, don't seem to understand the difference between retaliation and self-defence. If your neighbour goes out and does something horrific to someone, would you think it justified if your daughter is killed in retaliation? Would you go out and try to kill their children in return, if you had the opportunity to do so and couldn't get to them personally? Would you kill a neighbour of theirs if you couldn't get to their children? Do you think it would stop them attacking your family or teach them a lesson, any lesson worth teaching? The end of these cycles is never more violence. Especially violence against random people.
The people who planned this attack by Hamas are not the ones who are suffering from Israel's response right now. The civilians getting killed are, children among them.
Tocky on 14/10/2023 at 05:33
Yeah. Except it's going to happen. Consequences of actions. Israel will invade. They will destroy Hamas. Hamas started this. Israel will finish it. It's a damn shame. Israel knows this too. They do not want what Hamas started to end in bloodshed for innocents. But they are constrained by reality. I'm sorry I'm so drunk I can't articulate better but that is true. Retaliation and self defense? Bullshit. Palestine will get what they voted for. My daughter is safe because I did not vote for assholes who would hack children's heads off. Palestine did. Hamas will die. All of them. They can then decide if they want more hatred that will hold them back or more understanding that will help. Up to them.
Starker on 14/10/2023 at 05:49
They will do exactly what Hamas wanted. Watch the video by Beau.