heywood on 11/12/2023 at 21:23
Obviously, that's not what I was talking about, and yes I was over-simplifying. My point is that assigning blame and excusing Palestinian deaths because Hamas "attacked first" seems absurd when it's an ongoing, long-term conflict where the Israeli government is the aggressor most of the time and Palestinians are the ones who end up getting killed most of the time. I don't see any moral high ground for Israel to stand on, especially the current government.
Tocky on 12/12/2023 at 03:51
Forget moral high ground. That is a ridiculous claim. And yes, it is a dirty war. All wars are. But each and every time Palestinians attack and Israel responds. I've seen it over and over my whole life. To claim Israel is the aggressor is just wrong. Palestine attacks and Israel responds. Now, many do not like that when Israel responds they do it worse than they were attacked, that is true. But never forget the order. The order is important. But sure, rock throwing teens die of rubber bullets and Israeli settlements encroach and Palestinians attack them and Israelis attack back. Sometimes individual Israelis even attack first in the settlements. But most of the time? Sure. Tell that to somebody who doesn't watch the news.
I recall watching the news for years where Israel did not respond to Gazan rocket attacks and I was wondering what the hell was wrong with them. Were they trying to do like the idiots were telling them and not respond? But then they did. They invaded and destroyed tunnels for months. Turned out they had been mapping launch points. The major one was a school. And then after that they choked off the weapons coming in which lead to pro Palestine folks crying about "open air prison". LOL. I guess in a way they were right. You can't bring weapons into prison. But it's a poor prison that one can leave any time they want.
I just hope once this is over both sides will be ready for a two state solution. But I have to wonder if that happens will Palestine still attack? I just can't imagine them building their society into a thriving one instead of dashing it against the walls of Israel in a suicidal rage. I'm old and it's been doing that and losing all my life.
Starker on 12/12/2023 at 05:06
There is no Palestine. There is Israel, and there are areas under occupation of Israel in conditions that are with good reason compared to apartheid. Any Palestinian organisations recognised by Israel are basically subcontractors to Israeli institutions. Even Palestinian Authority is not recognised as a representative for the Palestinian people. In effect, there is nobody to speak for Palestinians, nobody to advance their political goals. But there are plenty that advance goals of violence and at times they are taken more seriously than any other kind of organisation, because it's a great political tool to delegitimise Palestinian causes. Cynically, Hamas has been more of a partner to Israel than any of the organisations with peaceful goals. Some of the even more cynical people say that it still is.
If you create the perfect conditions for radicalisation, and then strengthen the organisation that recruits those radicals and then also weaken and undermine the more secular and democratic organisations in order to divide the Palestinian people... what possible result do you expect? The "Hamas is an asset and Palestinian Authority is a burden" strategy has clearly failed with disastrous results.
People cannot be governed with fear and pain alone. Sooner or later, it will boil over. If you are driving people out of their homes, kill their families and friends, deny them education, employment, medicine, food, water, identity... you are creating people with nothing to lose. Nothing to lose except one thing and only one thing. But maybe doing the same thing over and over again will produce a different result this time.
uncadonego on 12/12/2023 at 05:27
Regardless of who is on the side of right, every time this happens, Palestinian children see this through children's eyes. From then on it is engrained in their memory that way. Then they grow up. Reinforced inevitable feelings. Keeping a system where your kids play in waterparks while almost 60% of Palestinian kids are living below the poverty line just reinforces the resentment. Seems like a great recruiting tool for future attacks. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't defend itself, but I have to agree with Starker's point.
Tocky on 12/12/2023 at 16:10
Israel ended occupation of Gaza in 2005. I'm not sure how Israel can force Palestinians to educate and provide a government and social services when, unlike apartheid, they are no longer there. While they were there they were attacked constantly. I mean, do you really expect Israel to provide funds which will then be used to buy weapons instead drinking water? How can Israel provide a government for Palestinians? That would be rejected outright.
All this "undermining" is a thing I've yet to see in my lifetime. But I have seen every authority for Palestine reject peace. I recall the PLO. I remember the airline bombings they did. I recall the breakdown of peace talks. Over time things solidify in your mind. No Palestinian representative has ever wanted peace, no, not even the PLO. I think in the end Arafat may have been softening. Maybe he didn't want to die thinking his whole life had been about war without a win. I don't know. His party was voted out. It's true that because of all he had done and supported prior that there was no crying in Israel about it.
And maybe Israel was pinning its hopes on Hamas after so long with peace rejection and terror from the PLO. But all I have seen is constant blaming of Israel when I've seen chance after chance thrown away all my life by whatever representative Palestinians select. I KNOW from having SEEN that peace has been rejected all along the process. Oh but just give them lots of money to buy more weapons instead of resources and force a decent government on them by occupation (again) I guess. Or please just think of the children and let them attack you without response.
I don't get the whole it's all up to Israel and all it's fault thing when all my life I've seen different. I don't even have a dog in the hunt, but I can't unsee what I've seen all my life.
Starker on 12/12/2023 at 17:29
Israel is the occupying power in Palestinian territories. Even in Gaza they are morally responsible for all the people to whom they deny "luxury items" such as... food by controlling the flow of goods into Gaza. Tell me, what possible threat does allowing Palestinians to eat pose for Israel? How exactly does keeping them food insecure (as many as 70% according to some estimates) increase Israel's security? The answer of course is that it doesn't. On the contrary, it creates desperate people ready to be recruited for desperate deeds.
Somehow, the blockade has not prevented Hamas from acquiring rockets, but it has sunk a huge amount of people in Gaza into abject poverty. Now, which population is easier to recruit from, a population who has its basic needs met or a population who lacks even water to wash themselves?
Tocky on 12/12/2023 at 21:53
Normally, when not attacked, there is no food or "goods" blockage. NOW after 1200 dead and parading dead bodies in the street to cheers there is. And maybe before a good percentage had food insecurity. But that isn't the same thing as a blockade. And for a power to be occupying they actually have to occupy and not just go in to arrest this or that terrorist. As I said, not since 2005. Maybe they will now. I don't know.
As for making more terrorists, it's an empty threat. Oh, you mean you will kill us HARDER unless we let you have the means to kill more of us? Well, since you put it like that, hell no. They already teach Jew hate in schools. If only we open the border to weapons they will not attack? Jesus Christ. I'm all for food and medicine but open borders and not hunt Hamas and letting them keep hostages to rape? Nah man.
And hasn't stopped the rockets? Why do you think they had to do things this way this time?
Starker on 13/12/2023 at 00:51
Quote Posted by Tocky
Normally, when not attacked, there is no food or "goods" blockage.
There was. And often very arbitrary, on things like fruit or anything deemed as unnecessary luxury. There were also limits on exports, which had a devastating effect on the farmers.
Quote Posted by Tocky
And for a power to be occupying they actually have to occupy and not just go in to arrest this or that terrorist.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli-occupied_territories)
Quote Posted by Tocky
And maybe before a good percentage had food insecurity. But that isn't the same thing as a blockade.
You throw people into deep poverty and unemployment, and then say it has nothing to do with the food insecurity. You're joking, right?
Quote Posted by Tocky
And hasn't stopped the rockets? Why do you think they had to do things this way this time?
During the October attack, Hamas launched thousands upon thousands of rocket attacks, overwhelming the Iron Dome capacity. If the blockade had stopped the rockets, where did the rockets come from, then? Magically appeared from thin air?
Tocky on 13/12/2023 at 03:46
I did not know about the fruit thing and the farmers not being able to export. Strange to do so without reason. Not fruit flies just being mean right?
The key part in that Wiki is that it says it HAS occupied. Yes. It HAS at points after wars and such. It even mentioned the Golan Heights which was given back. None of that changes that Gaza hasn't been occupied since 2005.
Reread this- And maybe before a good percentage had food insecurity. But that isn't the same thing as a blockade. Aside from fruit has any other food been blockaded? You seem to have misread it. Also those farmers not being able to export can't sell internally? And were they "thrown" into deep poverty and unemployment or did they war themselves into it?
And maybe you are right. Maybe they will always find rockets to attack with instead of food to smuggle in. Maybe they could smuggle fruit in inside rocket tubes since they seem to get those in.
BTW: do you know why the US was able to help Germany with the Marshal plan after WWII? Because they were not attacking us while we were doing it. I mean, you can make excuses and turn the cart around for that horse to push but why?
Starker on 13/12/2023 at 16:41
Tell me, how exactly can unemployed people who depend on food assistance just to keep themselves alive afford to buy food?
Quote:
The International Court of Justice (ICJ), the UN General Assembly, and the UN Security Council all regard Israel as the occupying power for the territories. UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel's occupation "an affront to international law". The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that Israel is holding the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".
holding. Not
was or
has.
Golan Heights has not been given back. It still has Israeli settlers living there right now.
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_Golan_Heights)
Quote:
The international community, with the exception of Israel and the United States, regards the Golan to be Syrian territory held under Israeli occupation. A number of states recognize the Israeli occupation as being legitimate under the United Nations Charter on a self-defense basis, but do not consider those concerns to allow for the annexation of territory seized by force.
