mxleader on 9/12/2023 at 04:36
Quote Posted by Tocky
Sure. Put your hand on the stove eye and tell me the fact your hand is burning is because of a newspaper article.
Who's to say it isn't? The truth becomes a lie and the lie becomes the truth.
Tocky on 9/12/2023 at 05:08
Quote Posted by Starker
Secondly, I was extremely shocked by Tocky's idea that you can teach people some sort of moral lessons or change their voting decisions or influence their attitudes towards you to be more positive by killing their family members. This sort of thinking is so alien to me, it might as well be orange and blue morality. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure fantasy and not something that works in real life, where murder only causes suffering and grief and causes more resentment, not less.
I'm sorry that I don't know of a way to present a way of understanding the situation that does not involve dealing with the facts. The fact is that when Israel is attacked it will respond not only in kind but worse. Is there some reason you doubt this? Teach a moral lesson? WTF? This is not a moral lesson. This is a fact. Do you deny this? Ok then what is happening? Want to deny that? Fine. Deny it. Does that change anything? No. The fact is that when Israel is attacked it will respond in spades. Is there some reason to deny that? Go ahead. Give it to me. Deny it. Think that changes anything? No.
You do not seem to understand me. Be as shocked that I accept fact as you want. That still does not change fact. When Israel is attacked it will respond. Nothing will change that. Greif and resentment? Do you think that will change the fact that Israel will respond to an attack with an attack? I'm accepting fact. YOU are not.
How can you be shocked by fact? I don't understand this. Moral lesson? How about accepting fact?
Tocky on 9/12/2023 at 05:09
Quote Posted by mxleader
Who's to say it isn't? The truth becomes a lie and the lie becomes the truth.
No.
mxleader on 9/12/2023 at 05:22
How can you be sure?
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 05:22
I'm not shocked by Israel's actions. Saddened, yes, but I pretty much expected them. Everybody did, including Hamas. Especially Hamas.
What I'm shocked about is the idea that you are able to enact some sort of positive change in people or instil moral lessons by collective punishment.
Yes, the collective punishment is a fact, I accept that. But I do not accept the premise that it is a good or effective tool to change people's minds. You know why? Because my people have been the targets of collective punishment... killings and deportations and worse. And generations later we still bear a grudge for that. This is not something that makes you sympathetic towards the regime that perpetrated it. The opposite, in fact. And I can say that for a fact.
Tocky on 9/12/2023 at 07:40
Quote Posted by Starker
I'm not shocked by Israel's actions. Saddened, yes, but I pretty much expected them. Everybody did, including Hamas. Especially Hamas.
What I'm shocked about is the idea that you are able to enact some sort of positive change in people or instil moral lessons by collective punishment.
Yes, the collective punishment is a fact, I accept that. But I do not accept the premise that it is a good or effective tool to change people's minds. You know why? Because my people have been the targets of collective punishment... killings and deportations and worse. And generations later we still bear a grudge for that. This is not something that makes you sympathetic towards the regime that perpetrated it. The opposite, in fact. And I can say that for a fact.
If you want intelligent outcomes then don't' do stupid shit. It does not matter whether you think it is an effective tool or not. Bear a grudge. Fine. Do a stupid thing. Fine. Like it? Change minds? Not going to happen. Keep doing violent things and expecting peaceful results? Not going to happen. Hey, bear a grudge. Have the greatest grudge you want. Still not going to produce the results you want if the response is bad for you. Don't believe me? Fine. Watch. Learn. Or don't. You don't seem to understand that attacking is not going to bear the fruit you want. Moral lessons? How about the one that if you attack you are going to be fucked in every way possible? Do you understand that? You better. You will find out. Or don't. Fuck yourself all you want. Like that? Feel good being fucked? Does not matter. Are you beginning to understand? Does it matter when you are fucked because you did it to yourself? Go ahead. Fuck yourself hard. Does that feel good? Want to do it again? Fine, do it. Does that solve anything? Fuck yourself really really hard. Did that help? Think deep on that. Did your enemy decide that because you decided to be an absolute ass that they would cave? No? Then why do it? Why fuck yourself? Why attack? Why when the result is bad for you? But sure, do it, do it hard. Do it like October 7th. Did that feel good? Then why do it? Does fucking your whole society result in a betterment of it? Love that. Lick it's asshole. Feel good? No? Why? Bombs? People dying? Aww. Whiney whineykins. Maybe more violence will help. Maybe if you just attack more and more. Help yet?
You don't seem to understand that I don't want attacking but I do understand attacking back is what will happen. Pretend it won't happen all you want and gasp in surprise when it does. Did it help? Make you feel justified? Enjoy it because that is not going to help.
If you don't want to be fucked then don't do shit asking for it. You act like that is a hard thing to understand. Why? I'm serious. Why is it hard to understand that if you want peace then don't attack? Explain. I'm not talking about attacking back. I'm talking about attacking first and then expecting the world to back you up on it.
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 08:49
You do not seem to understand that the killing of children completely unrelated to any kind of attacks is not going to bring any kind of results that you describe, no matter how hard you try to fuck them in every way possible. This is because Palestinians consist of different people, and they do not possess a hivemind that lets them be collectively responsibile for actions any one of them has taken. This is what makes collective punishment so evil and why it is universally condemned and considered to be a war crime. Because, in effect, you are killing people not because of what they have done, but simply because of their blood. The Palestinian people as a whole are not responsible for what happened on October 7th. They may look similar, but they are not the same person.
For example, the killing of a Palestinian child in the US is not going to teach Hamas any kind of lessons. The killing of a father picking olives on his farm in West Bank is not going to teach Hamas any kind of lessons. That is because Hamas doesn't care a lick about them and, on the contrary, welcome this kind of violence.
Trying to teach terrorists by terrorising ordinary people is the most inane thing I've ever heard and this is why I describe it as alien as orange and blue morality. It just doesn't make any kind of rational sense, any kind of emotional sense, any kind of sense at all.
RippedPhreak on 9/12/2023 at 12:09
Terrorists aren't going to "learn any moral lessons." The only way for Israel to be safe is to make the Palestinians more afraid of Israel then they are of Hamas. For the past few decades the Palestinians have either cheered Hamas on or simply not cared, because there were no consequences for doing so.
In the future maybe when some Hamas guy starts shooting his mouth off about killing Jews, the other Palestinians should beat the piss out of him and turn him over to Israel before he can carry out the attack. Thus no attack = their homes don't get blown up in response.
Quote:
you are killing people not because of what they have done, but simply because of their blood.
That's what Hamas did on 10/7. Maybe they should have thought about this beforehand.
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 14:49
If you are doing what the terrorists are doing, maybe it's time for some self-reflection.
Also, I'm pretty sure Hamas did think about it beforehand with the exact goal of provoking Israel into doing what they are doing. It's pretty much all there in the manual.
Azaran on 9/12/2023 at 15:21
I'll say one thing. As bad as Israel is in treating the Palestinians, they didn't resort to brutal sexual violence and rape, as was recently confirmed Hamas did October 7th (you can look it up yourself, it's a tough read)
