Al_B on 8/12/2023 at 19:20
I will be absolutely clear on this since it would be easy to misunderstand.
Anyone is free to have their opinions on the subjects in this thread and there are clearly a range of these from the posts already made. The conflict itself, the approach taken, the governmental / organisational approach - all reasonable subjects and most posts here have shown intelligence in debate and discussion.
What is not tolerated here is widespread accusations or hate directed at entire races of people. It doesn't matter who the subject of your hatred is, you will earn time away at the minimum. If you want to make those type of sweeping generalisations then please do so elsewhere.
I'm not deleting these posts because it is important to understand where the line is. It has been crossed here and if it happens again then this thread will be closed off permanently.d
P.S. do NOT reply to the post above - that will be deleted.
LordBooford on 8/12/2023 at 19:39
I have a long standing grudge against garden gnomes. I think they're up to no good beneath those jolly exteriors. I'll keep my prejudice in check though.
Tocky on 8/12/2023 at 21:30
Quote Posted by Starker
Hamas is not a leader in any way shape or form. It's a gang of thugs who wield violence to rule. Among many other things, this can be seen in the way they immediately started killing Fatah members when they failed to form a government and took power by military means.
Also, if Hamas is ever crushed, which many experts think highly unlikely, that will only mean another organisation like Hamas will rise, one whose doctrine Israel doesn't know and doesn't have experience with. Maybe it will be one of Hamas's rival organisations or something completely new, but the next cycle of violence has been practically guaranteed right now. Why do you think the US and the majority of countries have been desperately urging restraint and choosing targets more carefully? I'll give you a hint: it's not out of concern for Palestinians.
And none of it solves the issues in Israeli occupied territories where violence has steadily been escalating.
What would solve the issue of Iraeli occupation of its own territory (because until there is an agreement to a two state it is Israeli territory) is a wall neither side is allowed to cross.
I agree Hamas is no leader. No leader would bring down this sort of punishment on their own people.
If Hamas is crushed and another rises then that will also be crushed to the detriment of the Palestinian people. Having a less jaundiced view of my people, I think the US is urging restraint for the same reason I want restraint, and that is humanitarian purposes. I think that there is very little hope for Palestinians if Israel does not succeed in crushing Hamas. You said yourself Palestinians aren't going to stop them. Certainly Hamas will not stop itself. Everyone agrees they will start the next round of violence too right? As a matter of fact, you say it will happen with or without them anyway, and I thought I was a doom sayer on this issue.
No, Hamas being crushed and Palestinians forming a better government which does not attack Israel is the only way Palestinians have a future.
mxleader on 8/12/2023 at 21:38
This thread certainly has been interesting.
I lean more towards supporting Israel's plight over Palestine partially because for a host of reasons but I don't wish all of Palestine to disappear or even a few Arab countries that I have extreme mistrust from my limited Naval experiences. Blaming modern Israel for the current situation isn't really all that rational because the problems really started a couple thousand years ago.
If anyone wanted to put blame on someone you could blame the British and Churchill along with Truman and the US for pre WWII and post WWII policies and actions. Thousands upon thousands of Jewish people didn't ask to be persecuted in Europe and be forced to flee and to be refused entry by a lot of countries only to be crammed into a small area in the Middle East along the Mediterranean. If you wanted to place blame on an individual Israeli you could get angry and shake a fist at Ukrainian born Golda Meir and her controversial Labor Zionist politics. Of course it goes back further to WWI and all the complications of Mandatory Palestine and mass immigration from Europe. You could also get angry at a lot of other countries for refusing to take Jewish refugees thus forcing so many into a small area. That all being said Hamas/Palestinian tactics don't exactly win them any points with rational people around the world.
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 03:54
I have mainly two takeaways from this thread. Both of them ultimately seem to come down to blood.
It's so insidious how people keep conflating Hamas with Palestinians (and Israel's right-wing government with jews, for that matter). They are not the same thing. This technique is not only dangerous (which is why I suspect some people are employing it), but it's also simply magical thinking. It's assuming that people behave the same way because they are connected by blood.
Secondly, I was extremely shocked by Tocky's idea that you can teach people some sort of moral lessons or change their voting decisions or influence their attitudes towards you to be more positive by killing their family members. This sort of thinking is so alien to me, it might as well be orange and blue morality. As far as I'm concerned, this is pure fantasy and not something that works in real life, where murder only causes suffering and grief and causes more resentment, not less.
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 04:04
Quote Posted by Tocky
What would solve the issue of Iraeli occupation of its own territory (because until there is an agreement to a two state it is Israeli territory) is a wall neither side is allowed to cross.
You don't own a territory just because your military occupies it, you just control it. This is something even Israel's supreme court has recognised, not to speak of the International Court of Justice, UN Security Council, and a wide array of other international organisations.
Tocky on 9/12/2023 at 04:05
If you do not learn that sticking your hand in fire will burn it then you will lose your hand. That is a fact. I believe in facts.
Also the territory you speak of was allocated to Israel as Israel when the state was created. That is also a fact.
mxleader on 9/12/2023 at 04:13
Quote Posted by Tocky
That is also a fact.
Facts can easily be manipulated by the newspaper printing the facts.
Tocky on 9/12/2023 at 04:23
Sure. Put your hand on the stove eye and tell me the fact your hand is burning is because of a newspaper article.
Starker on 9/12/2023 at 04:30
Quote Posted by Tocky
If you do not learn that sticking your hand in fire will burn it then you will lose your hand. That is a fact. I believe in facts.
No, it is somebody else sticking your hand in fire for something your neighbour did and expecting your neighbour to learn from it. Except instead of hand, it's people you love and instead of fire... well, actually... it is fire. That is the nature of collective punishment. Very simply put, it is the killing of people because of their blood, nothing else.
Quote Posted by Tocky
Also the territory you speak of was allocated to Israel as Israel when the state was created. That is also a fact.
You can read up on history and decide for yourself, whether Israel is merely governing its own territory that rightfully belongs to them or whether they are in fact occupying it: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank)
