Starker on 23/11/2023 at 14:52
Quote Posted by Qooper
Israel won, securing its independence and expanding its borders beyond the UN's partition plan. So you can say that Israel did this against all previously established rules, but Israel was not the aggressor.
I mean, they didn't really ask the present inhabitants nicely: (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba)
The Oslo Accords was an extremely flawed process, but I agree that it has been some of the more significant progress towards peace that has been made in recent history. Even so, Palestinian extremists rejected it due to the unequal terms and denial of statehood and likewise a lot of the right wing Israelis opposed it, even going as far as assassinating their own prime minister.
The major question now, though, is what will happen after all the indiscriminate killing. For a lot of people, the only acceptable answer seems to be more indiscriminate killing. But at least, I think most people now seem to agree that encouraging the growth of Hamas and undermining Fatah to divide Palestinians was a serious mistake. I've read a lot of criticism of Mr Security in the past weeks in Israeli media and it does seem like trust in his vision has been severely shaken.
SD on 23/11/2023 at 21:45
To be clear, the Nakba happened because the Arabs tried to commit genocide against the Jews, and failed. This is their "catastrophe", the failure to finish what their Nazi allies in Europe started.
As British foreign minister Ernest Bevin (himself a staunch antizionist) said in February 1947, when we washed our hands of Mandatory Palestine and passed that particular hot potato over to the United Nations:
His Majesty’s Government have thus been faced with an irreconcilable conflict of principles … For the Jews the essential point of principle is the creation of a sovereign Jewish State. For the Arabs, the essential point of principle is to resist to the last the establishment of Jewish sovereignty in any part of Palestine.
That's February 1947. There is no Israel, there is no Nakba, no Likud, there are no settlements or blockades. And already the conflict is "irreconcilable" - because the Arabs are unwilling to countenance Judean sovereignty over any part of Judea.
That's what "Free Palestine" means, and what "From the river to the sea" means. A Palestine where the indigenous Jewish population has no control of its own destiny, if it were even permitted to exist at all.
All they have to do is acknowledge Israel's right to exist. That's it. Until that happens, there will be intractable conflict.
mxleader on 24/11/2023 at 00:52
I'm seeing Hamas propaganda saying that more Palestinian children have been killed in the current conflict than died in Auschwitz. It's shockingly stupid propaganda yet there are so many igorant asses out there that are jumping on that bandwagon of utter stupidity.
Tocky on 24/11/2023 at 02:54
To be fair, half the population is children so when bombs hit they will be half the casualties. I mean, though leaflets are dropped, and knock knock bombs sent beforehand, many won't or are not allowed to leave. Unlike Starker I don't think the bombing is indiscriminate. It's meant to destroy the tunnel network and to target the homes of Hamas. I would not put it past Hamas to not allow them to leave. Also, though Israel has the best targeting missiles, they don't always go where they are aimed.
But yeah, being hyperbolic is part of their strategy.
june gloom on 24/11/2023 at 03:49
Quote Posted by SD
Oh, Canada was invaded a looong time ago, which is how someone with the surname
Trudeau ends up ruling over land belonging to aboriginal Americans.
As you can see, the imperialist, colonialist mindset lingers to this day, which is why these Westerners are arrogant enough to believe that they can dictate to the indigenous people of Judea the extent to which they're permitted to defend their land.
The sheer cussed irony of this comment.
Starker on 24/11/2023 at 03:57
Israeli army from the very first days of bombing declared that the emphasis is on damage, not accuracy, and that they want to reduce Gaza to a "city of tents".
Starker on 24/11/2023 at 04:26
Also, some of the rhetoric from Israeli side has been every bit as chilling and barbaric as anything Hamas have been saying. (And for sure, Hamas's rhetoric may be wishful thinking, but it matches their actions every bit.)
As for Israel, though, one of the ideas that currently seems to be put into practice is making life unsustainable in Gaza:
Quote:
(
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/sju3uabba)
[...]
One option is a massive and complex ground operation, with no regard to duration and cost, while the second option is to create conditions where life in Gaza becomes unsustainable.
Israel has already begun suspending the supply of diesel, fuel, electricity, and water, as well as closing the border crossings. Yet, it remains uncertain whether these measures are enough.
Israel issued a stern warning to Egypt and made it clear that it would not permit humanitarian aid from Egypt to enter Gaza. Israel needs to create a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, compelling tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands to seek refuge in Egypt or the Gulf.
[...]
As a result, Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist, and I say this as a means rather than an end. I say this because there is no other option for ensuring the security of the State of Israel. We are fighting an existential war.
Another idea from the same guy that I very much hope nobody currently in power considers is using biological weapons:
Quote:
(
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-11-23/ty-article-opinion/.premium/giora-eilands-monstrous-gaza-proposal-is-evil-in-plain-sight/0000018b-f84b-d473-affb-f9eb09af0000)
Giora Eiland is one of the “thinking officers” to have come out of the IDF. Pleasant and eloquent, his demeanor is all moderation and sound judgment. He had an impressive military career, was head of the military's Operations and Planning Division and head of the National Security Council. He is constantly being interviewed and hailed by the Labor movement. He isn't inarticulate and ignorant like Brig. Gen. Amir Avivi and isn't bloodthirsty like Itamar Ben Gvir. Middle of the road, moderate right.
Eiland, not a well man, who has even written a book about his suffering, has an idea: Epidemics in Gaza are good for Israel. “After all, severe epidemics in the southern Strip will bring victory closer and reduce fatalities among IDF soldiers,” he wrote this week in Yedioth Ahronoth. One only has to wait for the daughters of Hamas' leaders to contract the plague, and we've won.
Eiland didn't detail which plagues he recommends - pestilence, boils or cholera, maybe a cocktail of smallpox and AIDS; perhaps also starvation for two million people. A promise of Israeli victory at rock bottom prices. “And no, it's not cruelty for its own sake,” he stressed, as though anyone thought otherwise. In fact, it's rare kindness and humaneness, which would only save human lives.
Eiland, in the role of Mother Theresa, an officer and a gentleman in the world's most moral army, made a Nazi proposal and no storm broke out. Anyone who attributes genocide to Israel is anti-Semitic, after all. Just imagine a European general proposing to starve a nation, or to kill it with an epidemic - the Jews, for instance. Imagine spreading a plague because it would promote the war effort. All is fair in war, and now it's ok to suggest anything and everything you've dreamed of and never dared to bring up. Political correctness has been turned upside down. Anyone can be Meir Kahane, nobody may be human. It's ok to propose genocide, but wrong to pity the children of Gaza. It's ok to propose ethnic cleansing, but it's wrong to be shocked by Gaza's punishment.
It's no longer only the right. It's the mainstream. Yesh Atid's MK Ram Ben Barak supports voluntary transfer, the moderate minister Gila Gamliel is also in favor. The Foreign Ministry said she doesn't represent the government. Yes, she does, and not only the government.
Monstrousness has become correct, diabolism has penetrated the center and even left of center. Another war or two, and everyone will be Kahane.
We haven't yet recovered from Hamas' brutality, and already we are being inundated with all this goodness — not only from the extreme right and the settlers, but from the heart of the Israeli center. Apparently, there is horrific cruelty and correct cruelty. Hamas are animals, but the proposal to spread disease is legitimate. One of the most dangerous occurrences to be born in this war is unfolding before our eyes: the standardization, legalization and normalization of evil.
This evil grew out of the ground of the unbelievable disregard and pathological indifference in Israel to what's happening now in Gaza. Foreign journalists who come here can't believe their eyes: Gaza's suffering doesn't exist. Israel hasn't killed thousands of children and didn't evict a million people from their homes. Gaza's sacrifice is totally out of the picture, gone not only from public discourse but even from the daily news. On Israeli television, alone in the world, we didn't kill children. According to the Israeli media, the IDF hasn't committed in this war even one tiny little war crime.
A society that so disregards reality and is so indifferent to the suffering of the nation it declared war on raises moral mutations like Eiland. You can be sure he thinks his suggestion isn't in any way tainted, all he did was make a reasonable suggestion that serves Israel's interest. What other consideration is there, anyway, except Israel's interest? International law is for the weak, morality for the philosophizers, humanism for the bleeding hearts. And really, what's wrong with a plague in Gaza? Only one thing: it could infect Israel too. In fact, it already has.
mxleader on 24/11/2023 at 05:31
Israel = makes great Humus and Bagels.
Hamas = Hate, propaganda, terrorism and unprovoked attacks.
I'm supporting Israel.
Tocky on 24/11/2023 at 16:40
I can't view it so lightly. It is horrible. But the second part about Hamas is true. They try to justify the evil with history which can be easily turned back on them with their own. What is done by Israel is also horrible but it's also a response as opposed to an attack out of nowhere. It's been the same cycle my entire life. Palestine attacks. Israel responds. Is Israel a nation of angels that won't hit back? No. Should they back off on settlements? Yes. But the fences they put up are blatantly needed.
And there are nuts like Eiland. True, they are few and they are used much like when Republicans find a liberal nut to say that is the way all liberals are, but they exist. The attacks by Palestine serve to provoke them further and I fear there will be more nuts. Hamas needs to be taken out before more of it's attacks cause more Eilands. And Palestinians need to decide to build back without the intent to make a future attack yet again and lose yet again. It's the only way to advance their society. Making excuses why they have to attack Israel is obviously not working.
I don't know what the long term goal of attacking and losing is. Is the propaganda of the backlash really worth it? Is giving up a future worth living in the past?
