Starker on 23/11/2023 at 01:50
As long as there are people with nothing to lose, there will be no peace. And creating more of such people will not help.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 01:53
There is always more to lose. That is part of the waking up.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 02:09
The things that you wake up with such methods is part of the problem, though.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 02:14
It is but it always will be. It's still peace or war and your pick.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 02:24
And this is why collective punishments don't work. If you kill someone's family and destroy their home, it will more often than not make them less inclined to pursue peace. It's like if you suddenly started beating your cat one day to make it more friendly and less likely to claw at you. It just doesn't work, no matter how hard you try.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 02:32
War it is then. Cat better wake up and stop clawing or that losing more will happen. Just a fact.
Edit: also that is a false analogy. It's like if your cat scratches you and expects you to be friendly to it in response.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 03:07
If you starve a cat, keep it in a cage, and mistreat it, I don't think you should be greatly surprised if it claws at you and keeps clawing at you. And that is also a fact whether the cat is bad or good. Thinking that more and more violence will solve the issue is just wishful thinking at that point.
And yes, undoubtedly Israel will kill more Palestinians and inflict more casualties. But that doesn't mean Israel will come out of it unscathed.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 03:27
No. It's like the cat attacked you with the intent to kill you then you put it back in it's place. But kitty wasn't done. Kitty imported help. Kitty still lost. Kitty kept importing more help until you had to put a cage around it to keep it from importing more help. You aren't particularly interesting in feeding something that keeps attacking you but you will let it live as long as it stops attacking you. You don't want it to be so healthy it decides to attack again and might win though. You don't want kitty to keep attacking but it's becoming increasingly obvious kitty is rabid. Kitty is going to keep attacking. No matter how much you feed or don't kitty hates. Kitty will always hate.
Kitty chooses to be hurt worse each time because kitty hates more than kitty wants it's kittens to thrive. Kitty expects you to pet it while it scratches you. Kitty is rabid.
Choose kitty. Choose peace or death. Both will be hurt but you will be hurt worse. The animal you are attacking is a wolf.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 06:27
The wolf is not innocent in all this either and has its history of attacking kitty, driving kitty out of the places kitty used to live, against all previously established rules. In your mind, it might be as simple as wolf righteous and justified and kitty wicked and bad, that kitty attacks wolf just because of irrational hatred or rabidness, but really there's a lot of bad blood between them and a whole history in which both think they are justified in their actions.
In fact, defenders of the wolf also expand this kind of thinking to all cats, and even felines in general, arguing that every cat or a kitten somehow deserves to be beaten and mistreated, no matter whether they have used claws or not.
To bring this all back into reality, you might think of mass killing of children merely as putting Palestinians back in their place, but to me it's no less horrific than the actions Hamas took.
Qooper on 23/11/2023 at 10:25
Quote Posted by Starker
The wolf is not innocent in all this either and has its history of attacking kitty, driving kitty out of the places kitty used to live, against all previously established rules.
In 1947 the UN proposed a partition plan for Palestine, which entailed the creation of separate Jewish and Arab states and international status for Jerusalem. The Jewish leadership accepted this plan, and the Arab leadership rejected it. After the end of the British mandate, Israel declared independence in 1948. This was followed by an invasion by neighbouring Arab states, leading to the Arab-Israeli war. Israel won, securing its independence and expanding its borders beyond the UN's partition plan. So you can say that Israel did this against all previously established rules, but Israel was not the aggressor.
In 1993 there was the Oslo Accords, in which some progress towards peace was made. Israel agreed to withdraw from certain areas in the West Bank and Gaza strip, which shows that Israel is willing to withdraw if it means peace. But it's also completely understandable that Israel is at the same time very cautious of doing so if it means further attacks from Palestinians.
Quote:
In fact, defenders of the wolf also expand this kind of thinking to all cats, and even felines in general, arguing that every cat or a kitten somehow deserves to be beaten and mistreated, no matter whether they have used claws or not.
You're accusing defenders of Israel of generalizing, but this in itself is a generalization. There are defenders of Israel that don't consider all Palestinians evil, but you're also right that unfortunately there are those that do.
Quote:
To bring this all back into reality, you might think of mass killing of children merely as putting Palestinians back in their place, but to me it's no less horrific than the actions Hamas took.
Civilian deaths are always tragic and horrible, and must be avoided if at all possible, and at the very least minimized. But sometimes the reality is that you have no good options, all of them are terrible. Then you must be exceptionally wise, carefully prioritize, and do the best you can with the hand you've been dealt. Here in Finland we have no idea what it's like to live a life where air-raid sirens sound sometimes multiple times a day, and in Israel it's become an ordinary part of life. Actually, we did have our first real taste of jihad terrorism in 2017 when an immigrant from Morocco stabbed ten people in Turku (my home town), and two of the victims died. I remember hearing this on the news and my heart sank, because my sister was down town at that time (luckily she wasn't one of the victims, you can't imagine how relieved I was). But this was just a single incident. In Israel, this sadly happens more often.
From the market square in Turku, 2017:
Inline Image:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Candles_in_Market_Square_in_Turku.jpg