Starker on 22/11/2023 at 21:59
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity, to borrow a phrase from US history. But I guess some lessons are never learned.
mxleader on 22/11/2023 at 23:30
Quote Posted by Starker
Bombing for peace is like fucking for virginity, to borrow a phrase from US history. But I guess some lessons are never learned.
It worked with the Japanese.
Starker on 22/11/2023 at 23:55
And it didn't work with Vietnam. Now, the only question remaining is which of the conflicts has more in common with the current situation.
(Of course, the idea that mass killings of civilians somehow contributed to the peace between US and Japan is somewhat of a questionable proposition in and of itself.)
mxleader on 23/11/2023 at 00:26
Quote Posted by Starker
And it didn't work with Vietnam. Now, the only question remaining is which of the conflicts has more in common with the current situation.
(Of course, the idea that mass killings of civilians somehow contributed to the peace between US and Japan is somewhat of a questionable proposition in and of itself.)
It didn't work with Vietnam because it was too slow and Russia had nukes by then.
It was pretty questionable but the Japanese citizen certainly didn't protest much to the carnage that happened to civilians in China and the Philippine Islands. When I think about my grandfather being a B-24 pilot in the Grim Reaper Squadron and their exploits against the Japanese I don't feel all that bad considering what happened to so many civilians on the Philippine Islands beforehand. War is hell. War is stupid.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 00:52
People under totalitarian regimes rarely have the opportunity to freely protest, if they are aware of any issues at all, because information is typically also restricted and nationalist or some other ideological fervor overshadows any nuance or empathy.
My point, though, is that it wasn't as much the killing of their civilians that changed the Japanese minds, it was more their political realignment, which even left many of the same people in power who had waged the war. From everything I read, Japanese leaders didn't give a crap about the civilian losses in bombings. Totalitarian regimes rarely do. Hell, killing their own people is their day job.
Another point is that keeping people in desperate conditions and without any hope or future is fertile grounds for breeding extremism. I think we would have a very different Germany if the Morgenthau plan had been enacted instead of the Marshall plan.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 00:58
This conflict is nothing like either. I mean, it has hate levels like Japan, and bombing more like Vietnam, but in this case Israel is not going anywhere. No matter how much terrorism Palestinians do in sneak attacks or rockets, no matter how early they teach their kids to hate Israel, it's just not going to make any difference. They are going to catch the shitty end of the stick every time. All it can ever be for them is self destructive to want to destroy Israel. It's not going to happen. And they are hurting themselves to try way more than Israel is being hurt.
They need to argue for a two state solution before their own hate destroys them. I think the world could get behind that, and more importantly, the US. Nobody wants to see Palestinians keep up this self destructive behavior. It's awful for all involved. The propaganda points just are not high enough for the sacrifice. The rest of the Muslim world is not going to come save them and wipe out Israel no matter how harsh the backlash to Palestinian attacks. We need another camp David and Palestinians will have to accept that they are not going to get anywhere near what they want and Israel is going to have to accept that peace is worth giving things up too.
I think we all know that. Hate will not win for either side. Nothing but loss in that direction.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 01:17
The killing of civilians rarely makes people more peaceful. On the contrary, it radicalises people sympathetic to the cause and turns bystanders into sympathisers. Bloody Sunday didn't solve the Troubles and there are many more examples of that.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 01:32
Well it certainly hasn't made Israel more peaceful being attacked has it? Palestinians better wake the fuck up before they fuck themselves harder.
Starker on 23/11/2023 at 01:40
I mean, yes, but Hamas also doesn't want peace, does it? Their entire goal was to start a new cycle of bloodshed while they are smug and safe in Turkey and Iran, because it brings them new recruits and furthers their goals.
Collective punishment of Palestinians is part of Hamas's goals and the whole idea of waking people up by bombing them in their homes is only going to cause further nightmares down the road.
Tocky on 23/11/2023 at 01:43
But those are the two options. Wake up and seek peace or fuck yourself harder. In spite of Hamas. In spite of bombing. That is the choice.
