mxleader on 21/11/2023 at 17:44
I really don't know why Hamas suddenly decided to break the peace and attack Israel but I think they miscalculated the response. I've seen a lot of videos on various social media outlets condemning Israel for their actions but it's purely victim blaming by a large religious group that who's mantra is to eliminate Israel and take all of the land they are on for themselves. You don't get to dictate the response of those you start a war with. You also don't get to protest the actions of those whom you attack. If Hamas wants to play big boy games they have to put on their big boy pants and except their fate. Oh but what about the women and children? We've seen enough wars in small countries to know that those who can will fight once a war begins. Palestinians regardless of whether you believe they support Hamas or not will take action against Israel. This is a fight over religious lands and economic resources and Hamas chose a very poor way to gain sympathy and help from the world. They are going to lose this one because they failed to look at history and who is backing Israel. I feel for anyone too young on either side to understand what is happening but everyone else is in the fight. War is Hell. War is stupid.
Tocky on 21/11/2023 at 20:13
Oh I think they knew. Maybe they didn't expect it to be this bad. I didn't. But they are used to the world press (aside from the US) giving them a pass and concentrating on Israels response instead.
Starker on 21/11/2023 at 21:17
Because killing thousands of women and children in their homes and shelters is not really something that should be ignored, despite a lot of people desperately wanting to and finding excuses for it.
The math is very simple -- Hamas doesn't have as many members than the number of houses that have been destroyed. Unless you want to believe that Hamas just keeps surviving the bombings miraculously, there could not have been Hamas hiding in every home that has been destroyed, even if there was just one single member of Hamas in each house.
Starker on 21/11/2023 at 22:35
As for what Hamas was expecting, Beau laid it out very clearly at the beginning of the conflict:
[video=youtube;UKvzOF-toIA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKvzOF-toIA[/video]
SD on 22/11/2023 at 02:01
Quote Posted by mxleader
I really don't know why Hamas suddenly decided to break the peace and attack Israel but I think they miscalculated the response.
Because they're running out of friends. Israel has been busy making peace with former enemies, most recently Saudi Arabia, UAE and Bahrain. The only people left in Palestine's corner are the Iran-Qatar-Turkey axis, the odd South American and African shithole, plus a ragtag bunch of Western left-wingers (many of them funded by Iran and/or Qatar, of course). Hamas is clearly trying to drive a wedge between Israel and its new allies.
So I think Hamas anticipated the robust response from Israel (remember, Hamas doesn't care about dead Palestinians, except insofar as they can exploit them for propaganda purposes), but what they didn't count on was the relative lack of response from other Arab countries. Other than a few admonishing words for the purpose of keeping up appearances, Saudi has basically done nothing. I'd even wager that behind the scenes they're somewhat supportive of eliminating Hamas, especially as they have their own issues with the Houthis in Yemen, with whom Hamas is aligned.
SD on 22/11/2023 at 02:25
Quote Posted by Tocky
It's true. Since the heinous nature of the October 7th attack, Israel has cared less about collateral damage when taking out Hamas who has been hiding in schools, hospitals, and refugee camps for the propaganda value of the Israelis strikes (and also sheer cowardliness and not caring about their own people). It's been amazing to see doctors and UN people lie for those places and then find tunnels and weapons stashes there.
Ever since I saw what was taught in UNRWA schools in the Palestinian territories, I've not been under any illusions about what the UN is, and the multitude of doctors who openly celebrated the October 7th massacre demonstrates that plenty of them are Hamas too. They were swearing blind that there were no terrorists in their hospitals, and now the CCTV footage of hostages being dragged into the hospital by armed men is coming out, and they're exposed as shameless liars. Not a one of them can be trusted.
Very notable is the revelation that the UN recently had an event to note the 100+ UN employees apparently killed in Gaza. Now, normal procedure at these events is to issue names and photographs of the deceased, but curiously, this information has not been released. What are they trying to hide?
WRT damaged and destroyed buildings, I don't doubt that Israel is operating with considerable force, but many of the buildings that have collapsed have done so because their foundations were considerably weakened by the extensive network of tunnels beneath them.
Tocky on 22/11/2023 at 15:32
The thing is, what Hamas did was so very heinous that the reaction to it has sympathy. And since we understand what they are doing we also understand how cynical Hamas is in employing it. Desperately wanting to and finding "excuses"? Over a thousand innocent unarmed people being murdered is plenty of "excuse". Hostages taken and held now and what is undoubtedly happening to them is plenty of "excuse". It's a bit more than "excuse" when they find tunnels under hospitals and weapons inside them. Hamas fighters fighting from schools is nothing new. Using children as human shields is nothing new for Hamas. They did in the last incursion Israel undertook to get rid of missiles. Why would we be surprised by them using hospitals?
If Gazans have a brain they will recall this reaction and gage whether protecting Hamas is worth it. They will now elect more moderate leaders surely. They will understand that every time Israel has to invade in an attempt to destroy Hamas it will be worse each time. It has been. No reason to think it won't be in the future, right? It's what I've seen. Surely they can see it is a losing proposition. They can keep losing more each time but wouldn't peace start to look better at some point? With the world understanding that they keep nursing a suicidal hate and doing terrible attacks for the propaganda response won't it seem pointless to suffer the increasing backlash at some point?
In any event, Israelis are now going to trade three for one hostages to buy Hamas cowards time to escape during cease fire. I hope they do all leave or get killed so Palestinians can vote in a government that cares for them more than they hate Israel. If not then the next time will be worse... and over... and over... ad infinitum.
mxleader on 22/11/2023 at 16:08
Israel and Palestine are like a codependent alcoholic married couple that blame each other for their behavior as the problem but neither one acknowledge that they both have a problem.
RippedPhreak on 22/11/2023 at 16:38
When you have a blood-soaked gang of barbarians with machine guns running your "state", how do you vote against them? Hamas will happily butcher hundreds of people just minding their own business at a dance party, how do you think they will treat anyone who votes against them?
The concept of having elections in Gaza at all is laughable.
mxleader on 22/11/2023 at 16:53
Well, you just have voter registration and everyone puts their preferred political party on the registry. Then anyone left will show up and vote for the best candidate.
