Israel attacked by Hamas

Starker on 18/11/2023 at 22:46

There are a lot of grievances on the Palestinian side that stem from precisely these kinds of cycles of violence and ethnic cleansing -- such as the depopulation of Palestinian towns and villages and building of settlements in the illegally occupied territories.

Azaran on 19/11/2023 at 19:15

(https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/no-bin-laden-did-not-strike-america-to-free-palestine/) This has to be satire. Right?

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A series of viral TikTok videos this week has brought Osama bin Laden's 2002 “Letter to America” to a new generation of Americans. And their reaction has come as a shock.

“Trying to go back to life as normal after reading Osama bin Laden's ‘Letter to America' and realizing everything we learned about the Middle East, 9/11, and ‘terrorism' was a lie,” one TikToker said in a video shared on Twitter by journalist Yashar Ali.

The general sentiment of the TikTokers is that bin Laden, far from being a crazed religious fanatic trying to kill Americans because he hated our freedoms, had legitimate political grievances against the West in general and the US in particular. One video showed a young woman, apparently in her 20s or early 30s, reenacting her celebration after bin Laden's death in 2011 and then flashing forward to today, “reading his letter to America knowing he was right.”
....
Let's put aside, for now, the shock of seeing Americans celebrating a terrorist that killed thousands of their fellow countrymen. Let's also ignore that it was David Duke-like antisemitism that won them over. And let's table these TikTokers' decision to overlook the parts of the letter that call on the US to reject premarital sex, homosexuality, and drugs and to embrace Shariah Law.

It's getting to a point where I feel most social media should be nuked from existence, and we go back to the early-mid 2000's internet

Jason Moyer on 19/11/2023 at 20:07

It's been a month and a half, I'm still waiting for someone to propose a solution that makes sense. Lots of people calling for a ceasefire, but that just means Hamas wins because they'll do what they always do - dig in harder, resupply, fire more rockets, and probably invade again. Bombing Gaza into dust doesn't seem like a good solution. I genuinely don't see what the options are here that aren't terrible.

Nicker on 19/11/2023 at 21:54

Either a Two State solution or a NO State solution. Neither side is going to get the complete eradication of the other so a negotiated compromise is the only outcome possible from this conflict. That or an infinite continuation of hostilities.

The NO State solution would either be my Swiftesque suggestion of sterilizing the Temple Mount with nukes, so nobody can have it, or making Jerusalem an International Capital, with no local status.

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I genuinely don't see what the options are here that aren't terrible.

SD on 19/11/2023 at 22:05

Only one side is trying to eradicate the other. When the Palestinians decide they want to coexist with the Jews, there will be peace. That's as true now as it has been at any point over the past 75 years.

Nicker on 19/11/2023 at 22:55

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Only one side is trying to eradicate the other.

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When the Palestinians decide they want to coexist with the Jews, there will be peace.

There you go, conflating Palestinians with Hamas and Israeli Jews with Likud again. Like I wouldn't notice.

Israelis and Palestinians would love to live in peace. The fascist on both sides, who have stolen power, don't want that. And before you repeat your previous mistake, yes they are both fucking Fascists. Likud and Hamas = FASCISTS.

Also: Still waiting for you to withdraw your accusation of anti-Semitism.

mxleader on 19/11/2023 at 23:02

Hamas will never stop trying to eradicate Israel. They are a terrorist state. No amount of bullshit propaganda from delusional creators on TikTok will change the fact that Palestine and Hamas are one in the same and are a terrorist state. If Israel wants to keep pushing Palestine to the point where they are no longer a threat then so be it. There should be zero tolerance for terrorist attacks.

SD on 19/11/2023 at 23:34

Quote Posted by Nicker

Nope. Sorry. Likud wants to empty Palestine of Palestinians to make room for illegal settlements. Just because they have a go-slow approach doesn't change their intent.

In any case, Likud certainly wants to eradicate Hamas, which is hopeless because even if they do destroy the existing membership, Son Of Hamas is waiting just over the next sand dune.

There you go, conflating Palestinians with Hamas and Israeli Jews with Likud again. Like I wouldn't notice.

Israelis and Palestinians would love to live in peace. The fascist on both sides, who have stolen power, don't want that. And before you repeat your previous mistake, yes they are both fucking Fascists. Likud and Hamas = FASCISTS.

Also: Still waiting for you to withdraw your accusation of anti-Semitism.

Israel withdrew from Gaza, so the idea they want to empty it of Palestinians is wholly without merit. The West Bank settlements will be similarly abandoned or traded in land swaps once peace is finally made. This has all been extensively covered in the media. Land for peace. Israel dismantled all its settlements and gave up the Sinai peninsula, an area three times the size of Israel, in exchange for nothing more than peace with Egypt. The precedent is there.

I don't accept that eradicating Hamas is pointless. It's the only realistic way out of this conflict. It gives the Palestinians a chance to choose a leadership that aren't Nazis.

Nobody has ever conflated Palestinians with Hamas or Israeli Jews with Likud. Likud didn't exist until 1973, by which time the Arabs had already tried to commit genocide on the Israelis on multiple occasions. This is not a Hamas problem. It's a Palestinian problem. They need to accept that Israel is going nowhere and make their peace with it. It needs them to make that choice.

I don't know what accusation of antisemitism you're referring to.

Starker on 20/11/2023 at 11:28

(https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-44)

Nearly half of homes in Gaza have been damaged by the bombing, with a significant portion being completely destroyed. More than half of the hospitals are out of service and of the remaining handful, half have been given evacuation orders. There are critically ill people in these hospitals and babies in incubators who won't survive on their own.

Right now, eradicating Hamas looks a lot like indiscriminate bombing that is targeting even UN-run schools and refugee camps and killing a lot of women and children. The vast, vast majority of whom didn't even vote for Hamas that one time 17 years ago. Oh, but I'm sure there's a poll somewhere that shows these children supported Hamas or something.

Tocky on 21/11/2023 at 16:38

It's true. Since the heinous nature of the October 7th attack, Israel has cared less about collateral damage when taking out Hamas who has been hiding in schools, hospitals, and refugee camps for the propaganda value of the Israelis strikes (and also sheer cowardliness and not caring about their own people). It's been amazing to see doctors and UN people lie for those places and then find tunnels and weapons stashes there.

At least doctors are now sending the premature babies to Egypt to be cared for. I guess they got enough propaganda out of them. In any event, a trade of hostages for ceasefire may work out. I'm sure Hamas will hold onto the prettier women for a while longer though.