SD on 27/10/2023 at 22:19
Quote Posted by Nicker
And yet the casualty rate of Palestinians vs Israelis is about 20 to 1 in favour of the "non-genocidal" Likud party. Actions speak louder than words.
Why do you refer to the Palestinian people as Hamas but the Likud party as Israelis? Seems a tad biased. Let's properly identify the combatant parties here. The civilians on both sides are the victims here, remember.
Well, the war is between Hamas and Israel, so...
It stands to reason that more Palestinians will die in any conflict than Israelis, for a number of reasons. Firstly, Israel is a modern advanced country much like our own, with weaponry to match; Palestine has only what they can smuggle through their tunnels or cobble together with materials they have to hand. Secondly, Israel goes to extreme efforts to protect its own people, whereas Hamas deliberately embeds themselves among civilians and in civilian structures in order to maximise casualties on its own side. Because then ignorant people in the West will look at the number of dead and think that it tells the whole story about right and wrong.
Violent Islamism is a death cult. You might as well look at the relative numbers of dead at Waco and conclude that David Koresh was the good guy.
I don't want to see civilians killed, but the Palestinians have no future with Hamas. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and whatever happens in the short-term, in the long-term they'll be better off for it. Though of course I appreciate that is scant consolation for those who die.
mxleader on 27/10/2023 at 22:32
Quote Posted by SD
I don't want to see civilians killed, but the Palestinians have no future with Hamas. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and whatever happens in the short-term, in the long-term they'll be better off for it.
Maybe Hamas needs to be eliminated but they've been around a very long time and will likely never fully disappear. whether or not you are for or against Hamas it would take an extreme amount of violence to get them to back down on a mostly permanent basis.
Nicker on 28/10/2023 at 18:31
Quote Posted by SD
Well, the war is between Hamas and Israel, so...
No. Wrong. It is between Likud and Hamas. It is between the fascists in Israel and all the fascist factions surrounding Israel. The Likud do not represent all Israelis or all Jews. The Likud actually represent a very small, radical, right-wing, radical group of Israelis. The Likud game the political system to stay in power and cultivate regional violence to justify their policies.
Quote Posted by SD
It stands to reason that more Palestinians will die in any conflict than Israelis, for a number of reasons. Firstly, Israel is a modern advanced country much like our own, with weaponry to match; Palestine has only what they can smuggle through their tunnels or cobble together with materials they have to hand. Secondly, Israel goes to extreme efforts to protect its own people, whereas Hamas deliberately embeds themselves among civilians and in civilian structures in order to maximise casualties on its own side. Because then ignorant people in the West will look at the number of dead and think that it tells the whole story about right and wrong.
Reason? Please. Justifying war crimes on both sides by only shining the light on one side is disingenuous. Just because The Likud uses it's superior military capabilities to minimize collateral damage, doesn't mean it won't put Israelis at extreme risk or sacrifice them to advance Likud's political ends. I still suspect that Likud knew about the Hamas attack that sparked this cycle, and permitted it to proceed. Likud didn't anticipate the size or effectiveness of the Hamas attack. Likud only needed a handful of Israeli deaths to justify another disproportionate response and ground invasion.
The willingness to sacrifice innocent people is a calculation made on BOTH SIDES. One murder - Ten murders. It's all fucking MURDER.
Quote Posted by SD
Violent Islamism is a death cult. You might as well look at the relative numbers of dead at Waco and conclude that David Koresh was the good guy.
False Equivalent. Stop playing political games with statistics.
Quote Posted by SD
I don't want to see civilians killed, but the Palestinians have no future with Hamas. Hamas needs to be eliminated, and whatever happens in the short-term, in the long-term they'll be better off for it. Though of course I appreciate that is scant consolation for those who die.
Getting rid of Hamas won't solve anything. The only way to get rid of Hamas and its inevitable spawn would be to kill every Arab in the middle east. How likely is that to happen, SD?
Eventually both peoples will have to negotiate and that could have been done without the blood-shed, if not for Hamas
AND Likud.
RippedPhreak on 28/10/2023 at 18:46
Negotiation is completely pointless. Hamas will nod a lot, smile a lot, promise to be good little boys forever, then when they have smuggled in enough weapons they will attack again.
Nicker on 28/10/2023 at 21:01
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
Negotiation is completely pointless.
And violence is even more pointless because the only way out IS through negotiations. Your work is done here. Bye bye.
Quote Posted by RippedPhreak
Hamas will nod a lot, smile a lot, promise to be good little boys forever, then when they have smuggled in enough weapons they will attack again.
And Likud will pretend to be civilized and go right back to covert terror, "resettlement", overt incursions and grossly disproportionate responses. However many times you choose to forget that the problem is fascists on both sides, I will remind you that the problem is fascists on both sides because the problem is fascists on both sides.
RippedPhreak on 28/10/2023 at 21:28
Sure, the Israelis could completely vote out and get of Likud. Hamas will make a few approving noises...nod, smile, and go right back to murdering Jews.
Starker on 29/10/2023 at 00:38
I don't think negotiating with Hamas would be any more fruitful than negotiation with Likud would be. They both have been actively undermining any peace process and neither is interested in any kind of realistic solution.
mxleader on 29/10/2023 at 00:43
Palestinian leaders walk away from the table when questioned about why they were killing civilians in their sleep. There are no innocent political parties in Palestine. I'm not saying that Israel is filled with saints but the invasion into Israel didn't do anything but create another pointless war that Palestine can't win. Nobody is going to be a winner in this case when all the dust settles.
SD on 29/10/2023 at 03:50
Even if we accept the dubious claim that Likud are fascists (I don't like them, but come on) they haven't been in power forever.
Likud wasn't formed until 1973 and didn't win an election until 1977. In the three decades before that Israel was run by the LEFT.
For that entire three decades, Palestinian and Arab terrorists were killing Israelis. How can that be the fault of a party that didn't exist yet?
Settlements didn't appear until 1967. Two decades of Palestinian violence, based on... what?
Arab violence against Jews in the Land of Israel has a long and inglorious history that pre-dates the establishment of modern Israel by centuries.
If people can't accept that settlements and Likud and the rest of it are flimsy post hoc excuses to justify pre-existing antisemitism, then there's no reasoning with them.
Nicker on 29/10/2023 at 16:48
There's no Best Before Date for being a fascist (and you don't have to be Italian either). Fascist is as fascist does and both Hamas and Likud use fascist tactics and strategies to advance their
ideological goals. Not political goals.
Europeans violently oppressed Jews for centuries. After WW2, what if Britain and the Allies had given part of Germany to the Jews as a compensatory homeland, instead of a piece of trackless desert at the edge of Western Civilization (tres colonialist, oui?)? Would that justify violence on either side?
Your argument doesn't travel well.
Quote:
Arab violence against Jews in the Land of Israel has a long and inglorious history that pre-dates the establishment of modern Israel by centuries.
OK - you went there first, SD.
The Pentateuch / Old Testament is a catalogue of Yahweh's Chosen People being oppressed by, and oppressing, the other people's of the region. Yahweh's Chosen are both subject to and employ war crimes. They flee genocide and successfully commit it. How much of that story is fiction and how much is actual history, is moot. It's the story that true believers of the Abrahamic faiths take as 'gospel'. The story tells us almost nothing of historical usefulness. The willingness of all parties to use it as justification for an eternal continuance speaks to the real issue, malignant religious narcissism.
Are you seriously going to parse that narrative in search of an objective first cause? And assuming that you miraculously produce a clear point of blame, are you going to present a multi-millennial grievance as grist for a modern problem? Go for it.
Quote:
If people can't accept that settlements and Likud and the rest of it are flimsy post hoc excuses to justify pre-existing antisemitism, then there's no reasoning with them.
Ad Hom.
Likud and the settlements are contemporary sources of provocation, not anti-Semitic straws for grasping.
Also, both Arabs and Jews are Semites so I guess Likud is anti-Semitic, if we are going to play the race card and paste labels on each other.
BTW. Nicker = Jewish (on my mother's side) so try harder.
