heywood on 12/10/2023 at 14:40
Qooper, the conflict is obviously not symmetric, in many ways besides just that. Few wars are. Edit: looks like henke ninja'd me with stats.
If they can't have sympathy for each other, they won't get any from me. It would be that simple, except I'm paying taxes that help maintain this situation and can't get my government out of it.
Qooper on 12/10/2023 at 15:36
Quote Posted by PigLick
I think that most people here are sickened and appalled by these events and would rather not discuss it too much. The thread would most likely end up in flames anyway.
I totally understand. My intention was not to cause any fires, but to have a place where the topic could be discussed in a civil manner.
Quote Posted by henke
I think more than religion it's just plain ol' fight over space and resources.
Although I get your point, Israel is a tiny piece of land and there's much more of space and resources in the neighboring countries. And for Palestinians at least, more allies or people sympathetic to them. I'm not saying the neighboring countries are obligated to give the Palestinians their land, I'm saying that they also have the opportunity to be a part of the solution if they truly believed a non-violent solution could be achieved.
Quote:
You're right, it's not symmetric.
The statistics are absolutely horrible, I must agree. And it's important to look at them and be aware that it's many times more Palestinians that have died in this war than Israelis. All civilian deaths are tragic. But the statistics doesn't tell how many of them are combatants and how many are civilians. The stats also don't show in what circumstances they died. Like I already mentioned, Hamas are known to use civilians as human shields, and it's also known that before Israel targets a building, it sends leaflets there to let the residents know and gives them enough time to evacuate. I'm not saying that this makes it good, it's still horrible. I'm saying that this often doesn't get considered or talked about. What do you do against an enemy that uses civilians as a shield and fires rockets from multiple locations into your civilian population? Not an easy or simple situation.
Also, if we look at Russia's invasion of Ukraine, according to estimates russia has almost 300k casualties. I don't know how many Ukraine has lost, but we know russia sends their troops in these meatwave attacks, and probably has more casualties that Ukraine.
The situation is not symmetric. However, we don't use this as an argument against what Ukraine is doing.
I don't agree with everything Israel does, and I think many times they could've avoided conflict. But I also don't think Israel is in any way in an easy situation, because the other side doesn't exactly want to share land and live peacefully with Israel.
Quote Posted by heywood
Qooper, the conflict is obviously not symmetric, in many ways besides just that. Few wars are. Edit: looks like henke ninja'd me with stats.
If they can't have sympathy for each other, they won't get any from me. It would be that simple, except I'm paying taxes that help maintain this situation and can't get my government out of it.
Henke is a ninja both in stats and in Quake. He once (or twenty times) blew my head off with a well-placed rocket.
I know the situation between Israel and Hamas is not the same as the situation between Ukraine and rus, but I think the following point still stands: Ukrainians and Russians don't have any sympathy for each other, yet we still clearly show sympathy for Ukraine.
Pyrian on 12/10/2023 at 15:54
Quote Posted by Qooper
And for Palestinians at least, more allies or people sympathetic to them. I'm not saying the neighboring countries are obligated to give the Palestinians their land, I'm saying that they also have the opportunity to be a part of the solution if they truly believed a non-violent solution could be achieved.
There are millions of Palestinian refugees living in terrible conditions outside Israel, their host countries unwilling to let them settle there on the grounds that Israel should take them back... Since 1948. I have difficulty believing that any sympathy for Palestinians is a driving motivation for those in power, there. It's just propaganda fed to their people, alongside the sectarian hatred. (
https://www.anera.org/blog/what-are-palestinian-refugee-camp-conditions-like/)
Nameless Voice on 12/10/2023 at 16:29
Attacking civilians is never okay, but I don't see how we can expect anything else from a people who have been living in a giant concentration camp for decades while the rest of the world actively cheer on their oppressors.
Also, what is the motivation to talk about anything when every piece of news, every headline, every discussions is blatant, one-sided propaganda?
An entire country is - once again - being reduced to rubble, huge numbers of civilians are being murdered, an entire civilian population is having their essential utilities like water and power cut off, and yet that is reduced to tiny a footnote, and downplayed with phrases like "[Israel have] targeted buildings in Gaza", while the original, much smaller attack gets top coverage and is exaggerated with each retelling.
A small group of terrorists attacking civilians is (rightly) deplored, but no one cares about a well-armed military massacring civilians en masse.
heywood on 12/10/2023 at 16:48
We put all our chips on Fatah and Abbas after Yasser Arafat died, hoping the PNA could govern, but it turned out just like the Afghan government we tried to make, a gravy train of graft and corruption, undemocratic, and ineffective. Not that Israel ever wanted that project to succeed.
Hamas represents revolutionary Islam, so it finds support from Iran, but none of the Arab states want anything to do with it, especially after the "Arab spring" and civil wars in Syria and Yemen. I think they are taking a step back and breathing a sigh of relief that it's Israel's problem and not theirs.
Quote Posted by Nameless Voice
A small group of terrorists attacking civilians is (rightly) deplored
Hamas is not a small group of terrorists, and it was more of a military operation than a terrorist attack.
Starker on 13/10/2023 at 03:45
Quote Posted by Qooper
I know the situation between Israel and Hamas is not the same as the situation between Ukraine and rus, but I think the following point still stands: Ukrainians and Russians don't have any sympathy for each other, yet we still clearly show sympathy for Ukraine.
I mean, (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_occupation_of_the_West_Bank) Ukrainians didn't occupy parts of Russia and build settlements there, so there's that little bit of difference. But in any case, we show sympathy to Ukraine because Ukraine as a sovereign territory was attacked entirely unprovoked, merely because Russia wants to keep them in their sphere of influence, against all previous agreements between the countries and Russia promising to safeguard Ukraine's territorial integrity. I imagine much the same would be true if the US started an brutal invasion of Canada due to Canada building closer ties with China with the only exception being that the US has never promised to protect Canada.
Also, a large part of why Ukraine has no sympathy towards Russia is because Russia attacked them and annexed their territories, whereas Russian hatred is more abstract and is based on depicting the Ukrainains as being evil nazis being in cahoots with if not the puppets of the Western powers.
mxleader on 13/10/2023 at 04:17
I may have mentioned in another thread my dislike for the current Iranian regime for biased reasons. Iran backing Hamas doesn't surprise me in the least but I think both Hamas and Iran may have miscalculated their success with their current campaign. Of course if their soul purpose is to draw the west into their holy war the may find success. It's going to be a really big mess by the time it's all over.
Starker on 13/10/2023 at 04:56
Depends a lot on what the goals were:
[video=youtube;UKvzOF-toIA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKvzOF-toIA[/video]
Jason Moyer on 13/10/2023 at 06:56
Quote Posted by heywood
Hamas is not a small group of terrorists, and it was more of a military operation than a terrorist attack.
I'm constantly surprised that people don't know that Hamas are the elected representatives of Palestine. Now, that was in 2006 or whatever because Fatah (thankfully) has refused to cede power in the West Bank or hold new elections, but they're still effectively the governing body of the Gaza Strip. This isn't some rando terrorist cell committing a terrorist act, it's a declaration of war. I don't like Netanyahu or Israel's treatment of the enclaves, but Hamas knew what was going to happen in Gaza if they did this.
Nicker on 13/10/2023 at 13:03
Thanks, Starker. Beau nails it, of course.
The next cycle. Same as the last cycle.
Inline Image:
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oq0dNGAX3w0/WU6ZdhAvfzI/AAAAAAAAmIg/LV4XwhQKmcMmXKdGfokmhu_c-vkvKfuugCLcBGAs/s640/hitstal.jpgAbout thirty years ago, or so, there was a potential inflection point in this conflict. Activists and scholars in Palestine and Israel had been quietly working in the background, to craft a real solution to the constant waring. It wasn't just a vague statement of intent, it was an actual plan and timeline for resolving difficult issues. It was a realistic path forward.
The moment they went public with the promise of peace, a religious extremist committed a heinous act of terror on the Temple Mount. I won't say which side did this, since it was just a matter of who acted first to assure that peace would be impossible.
