Azaran on 23/10/2023 at 19:40
Quote Posted by Qooper
Unless SD is right and has a point? Please, don't view Islam with rose-tinted glasses. No one should be under any illusions about Islam.
It's important to distinguish the various branches of Islam. What you're thinking of is (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism) Wahhabism (Islam's version of far-right evangelicalism), which indeed seeks to dominate the world through forced conversion and terror, and enjoys lots of support in certain areas (Saudi Arabia where it originated, Pakistan, Bangladesh, parts of India, etc), and is spreading quickly, even in Europe.
Keep in mind that Wahhabis also
hate other forms of Islam with a passion (especially Sufis and Ahmadis). Equiating a Wahhabi and a Sufi is like comparing Pat Robertson and Catholic monks.
RippedPhreak on 23/10/2023 at 19:55
The various branches of Islam don't matter. The most fanatical ones with the most guns will be setting the direction. For example there might be many Palestinians who disapprove of the Hamas invasion and massacre, but they could not or would not stop it. Thus their opinion didn't matter.
The only opinions that mattered were the ones with the guns and willingness to kill.
Aja on 23/10/2023 at 20:31
Quote Posted by SD
All I can say is that I sure hope you're not a Professor of Logic.
I think instead of putting words in my mouth, you'd be so much better off just looking at the things I actually said. None of it was as simplistic as "Muslims hate our freedoms", and if that was what you took from my post, you need to try harder.
I know I'm an idiot and that I don't rank anywhere near even the best thinkers on TTLG. But earlier you said this:
Quote:
Real liberals don't pretend that secular democrats and progressive politics can coexist peacefully with people who are diametrically opposed to enlightenment values.
So if by "people who are diametrically opposed to enlightenment values" you meant all Palestinians, then you most certainly are painting Muslims with a broad brush. Or if you only meant Hamas, then there's no way you could justify the retaliation on Palestinian civilians because the majority of them don't even support their leadership, and even though some do, it's not difficult to understand why a people who have basically lost any hope of effective nonviolent protest would turn to something more extreme.
Quote:
It wasn't a "handful of protestors" marching in support of Palestine, it was all of them.
I meant a handful of protestors at the rally who stomped on the Progress Pride flag. We can't reasonably say what a majority of Palestinian civilians think about LGBTQ rights. They're kind of under a lot of stress to be thinking about that. Even if they were vehemently opposed, it wouldn't justify an occupation. Are some protestors who wave pride flags at the rally maybe not fully informed about the cause they're supporting? Of course. But that doesn't make ending oppression an unworthy cause.
SD on 23/10/2023 at 23:30
Quote Posted by Aja
So if by "people who are diametrically opposed to enlightenment values" you meant all Palestinians, then you most certainly are painting Muslims with a broad brush. Or if you only meant Hamas, then there's no way you could justify the retaliation on Palestinian civilians because the majority of them don't even support their leadership, and even though some do, it's not difficult to understand why a people who have basically lost any hope of effective nonviolent protest would turn to something more extreme.
When I say "people who are diametrically opposed to enlightenment values", I'm speaking in broad terms. It certainly includes, but isn't limited to, Islamists who come to our tolerant Western societies and try to impose their backwards values upon us.
Hamas, who are essentially Nazi in their outlook, are very definitely opposed to enlightenment values. I don't see any "retaliation on Palestinian civilians", I see war by Israel upon Hamas. You're decidedly wrong when you say it can't be justified, because Hamas initiated an act of war, and Israel is permitted to defend itself. That's international law.
You're also guilty of putting the cart before the horse here. The extreme tactics came first; that's the reason Gaza is under blockade in the first place. Palestine has had numerous chances to accept a two-state solution, and chosen violence on each occasion.
Quote Posted by Aja
I meant a handful of protestors at the rally who stomped on the Progress Pride flag. We can't reasonably say what a majority of Palestinian civilians think about LGBTQ rights. They're kind of under a lot of stress to be thinking about that. Even if they were vehemently opposed, it wouldn't justify an occupation. Are some protestors who wave pride flags at the rally maybe not fully informed about the cause they're supporting? Of course. But that doesn't make ending oppression an unworthy cause.
Actually we can extremely reasonably say what Palestinian civilians think about LGBT rights. Surveys repeatedly show it. I'm looking at one from 2019 which showed that just 5% of people in the West Bank believe same-sex relations should be accepted. If you could even ask that question in Hamas-controlled Gaza, I'd wager it would be even lower.
The reason that the likes of Hamas and Isis and Boko Haram and Al Qaeda come out of these societies is precisely because these societies have regressive attitudes in the first place.
If you want to end oppression, my view is you don't march in favour of oppressive societies. Palestine needs to be freed - from Hamas. Hopefully Israel can finally finish them off this time and someone more reasonable replaces them.
You can't negotiate with someone who wants to wipe you off the face of the planet.
june gloom on 24/10/2023 at 00:41
Quote Posted by SD
"I stand with Israel" has never, to my knowledge, meant you uncritically support everything Israel does
This is a lie, and there are a million blue check accounts on Twitter that show why it's a lie.
Starker on 24/10/2023 at 01:09
Quote Posted by Tocky
Security does not work and the opposite does not either. That is the problem. Not even talks have worked.
Especially when the talks have been like this:
Everything so far has been leading further and further from peace -- more and more land is taken from Palestinians, Israel destroys a hundred times more Palestinian buildings than it permits them to build, settlers are unabashedly price tagging Palestinians, people struggle for basic necessities like... water (and no, people in Gaza are not living in five star hotels or in opulent luxury off of abundance of aid, as some people in this thread have suggested).
And of course Hamas had not been innocent in this. If it's an open air prison, then Hamas are the wardens that run it. But so far it looks very much that the leadership of Israel had been content with the situation, because they could always "mow the lawn" or whatever euphemism was in vogue these days. Plus it divided Palestinians and undermined their legitimacy.
SD on 24/10/2023 at 01:26
Quote Posted by june gloom
This is a lie, and there are a million blue check accounts on Twitter that show why it's a lie.
Thanks for that overwhelming quantity of supporting evidence. Your PhD is in the post.
june gloom on 24/10/2023 at 03:55
Yeah, there's a whole lot of supporting evidence going on in this thread.
SD on 24/10/2023 at 09:18
Your assertion doesn't even stand up to basic reason. The whole world stood with the USA after 9/11, it didn't mean they all became George W Bush fans overnight, and it didn't stop any of us criticising the Iraq War either.
Harvester on 24/10/2023 at 09:35
SD, to be fair, among some Christians I do see an unconditional support of Israel. With memes like
Quote:
If you have a problem with Israel, your problem is not with Israel, your problem is with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob
, implying that even criticism of Israel's policies is an act of rebellion against God. I saw this meme being shared by a conservative Christian on my Facebook wall, and I think my sister-in-law adheres to this line of thinking. On the other hand, my brother-in-law organized a march to the International Criminal Court in The Hague for a movement he just started called
Christians against Genocide in Gaza so there is a great difference of opinion even in my own family (I've noticed some atheists seem to think that all Christians are rabid Israel supporters but I assure you that's not the case).. There's video of the march he organized but it's all in Dutch so it's pointless to post here. Yesterday I talked about this issue with my brother-in-law over WhatsApp while listening to a podcast in which he featured (arguing the Palestinian side against a
Christians For Israel member). I spent a whole evening concerning myself with this conflict and as a result I had a bad night of sleep. I'm noticing this horrible conflict bothers me even more than the war in Ukraine.
I might get into where I stand myself, but I don't have the time right now.
