Aja on 22/10/2023 at 20:27
Quote Posted by SD
In a fine example of ignorance and stupidity, some bright sparks took a Progress Pride flag to the pro-Palestine demonstration in London today, and were shocked when they were attacked and their flag trampled on.
As amusing as it is to see the concept of intersectionality colliding headfirst with reality, you have to wonder at the mindset of sexual minorities marching
against the only nation in the region that would actually tolerate their lifestyles.
You're more eloquent than a typical right-wing troll — I'll give you that —but the more of your participation I see in threads like these, the more apparent it becomes that you're not actually interested in debate or discussion; you're here to own the libs. And that wouldn't be so disappointing if I didn't believe you were actually capable of good faith argument. I admit it; I get angry reading your posts, so mission accomplished, I guess. Maybe that's on me, and I should know better by now. But it just makes TTLG so much more shitty a place than it needs to be.
SD on 22/10/2023 at 20:47
Quote Posted by Aja
You’re more eloquent than a typical right-wing troll — I’ll give you that —but the more of your participation I see in threads like these, the more apparent it becomes that you’re not actually interested in debate or discussion; you’re here to own the libs. And that wouldn’t be so disappointing if I didn’t believe you were actually capable of good faith argument. I admit it; I get angry reading your posts, so mission accomplished, I guess. Maybe that’s on me, and I should know better by now. But it just makes TTLG so much more shitty a place than it needs to be.
So much wrong in one post. I suppose you ought to be commended for efficiency, at least.
I'm not right-wing. I'm not a troll. I'm not out to "own the libs" because I
am a liberal - a real liberal.
You can tell who the real liberals are. They're the ones who support freedom of speech; freedom of thought, of conscience and association. They support societies that tolerate different viewpoints and alternative lifestyles. They support secular democracy, and they're against fascism and theocracy.
Real liberals don't pretend that secular democrats and progressive politics can coexist peacefully with people who are diametrically opposed to enlightenment values. And they know that those values are worth fighting for - and killing and dying for, if necessary.
I lament the fact that some people are so deluded that they believe a pro-LGBT message would have been welcomed by people demonstrating in favour of a nation that criminalises and brutally represses all gay behaviours. Of course, I knew they exist because I'm already familiar with the "Queers for Palestine" pressure group, who should be filed alongside "Turkeys for Thanksgiving" and "Chickens for KFC".
I don't know what part of that angers you. Perhaps you need to have a long, hard think about what you actually believe, and how far you're willing to go to defend it.
"Own the libs". Good grief. I bet you haven't even read a single word of JS Mill.
Tocky on 23/10/2023 at 15:41
I don't care what anyone labels themselves or others, but I am concerned about the ability to speak and act freely, and Islam does not allow that. The more power it has the less power individuals have. One would think totalitarian religion would not be a thing anyone liberal would want but there is such a disconnect in thinking it makes my head explode. Perhaps because Noam Chomsky has spoken so favorably for Palestine, those inclined to follow anything they think is liberal leap headfirst into that empty pool.
Labels do allow for dismissive behavior, however. They allow for the putting of words into others mouths. I hate when that is done to me. And it's done often by both sides. I've argued the conservative viewpoint with SD on many occasions and he is not conservative. He thinks and he will play devils advocate just to bring out points as I often do. But on this one he is not wrong.
I think we all lament the loss of life. I think we are all frustrated in how to stop it. But I don't think pacifism has ever worked against totalitarian systems. The only time I have ever seen it work is in shaming Christians during the civil rights movement but Islam is too set in justifying their hate to ever fall for that. Others, often liberal, back them up in it even.
I would like to be wrong. I would like to think if Israel would just not fight back that things would cool and everyone would go about their lives. But nothing in my lifetime has shown me it will. Every time Israel backs off there are rockets or attacks of some kind. So they fight back and kill five or ten times as many. It's always the same response. In stopping the ability of those attacking it always hurts the populace.
And this time they can't just leave hostages in the hands of Hamas. Hamas has no morals. No humanity. Israeli leaders may have been wrong in broad brushing the whole populace of Palestinians but they were not wrong in applying the term animals to Hamas. They earned that. Are still earning it. And anyone cheering for that or siding with it is horribly wrong. Not that anyone here is. I have seen lashing out and ascribing thoughts not voiced to others here but not that.
I wish there were a path to peace. But I can't see it. Certainly not while hostages are being raped and tortured. Hamas has gotten what they want and what they want is horrible. I don't see how it can be blamed on Israel. Not this. This is too horrible. How can this depravity be rationalized away? Maybe Israel should have not bombed communications stations and electrical and allowed themselves to be killed in greater numbers when they invade? Is that it? Maybe just allow Hamas to kill that many and capture that many and go on like it didn't happen with no invasion? Would that work? Maybe take down the fences and allow suicide bombers like before? Will that work?
There is no wonder we didn't want this discussion. Nothing works.
Aja on 23/10/2023 at 15:58
Quote Posted by SD
"Own the libs". Good grief. I bet you haven't even read a single word of JS Mill.
There's valid points to be made about the treatment of LGBT people in Palestine, but to use it as justification for the subjugation of an entire people is just sinister. This issue is so much more complex than "Muslims hate our freedoms," and I get angry because you take a trivial fact like that a handful of protestors out of 100,000 are transphobes and then extend it to the entire situation as though it's some smoking gun. And you clearly don't "lament" when something like this happens; you relish it because it allows you to get in one of your trademark sneering comments, that rarely go deeper than Jordan Peterson-esque levels of bitterness and willful ignorance. Meanwhile Israel continues its rightward trajectory. You're against facism and theocracy -- well, keep an eye out!
Also, classical liberalism
is right wing.
Starker on 23/10/2023 at 16:17
If you look at the past decades and still think Mr Security is on the correct path... well, there was that one definition about doing things over and over again and expecting a different result.
Tocky on 23/10/2023 at 16:30
Security does not work and the opposite does not either. That is the problem. Not even talks have worked.
RippedPhreak on 23/10/2023 at 16:55
Quote:
There's valid points to be made about the treatment of LGBT people in Palestine, but to use it as justification for the subjugation of an entire people is just sinister.
It didn't look like he was justifying any subjugation there. Just pointed out that if gay people march to further empower Islam, they are enabling an authoritarian system that will throw them off of high buildings as soon as it DOES gain power.
SD on 23/10/2023 at 18:37
Quote Posted by Aja
There's valid points to be made about the treatment of LGBT people in Palestine, but to use it as justification for the subjugation of an entire people is just sinister. This issue is so much more complex than "Muslims hate our freedoms," and I get angry because you take a trivial fact like that a handful of protestors out of 100,000 are transphobes and then extend it to the entire situation as though it's some smoking gun. And you clearly don't "lament" when something like this happens; you relish it because it allows you to get in one of your trademark sneering comments, that rarely go deeper than Jordan Peterson-esque levels of bitterness and willful ignorance. Meanwhile Israel continues its rightward trajectory. You're against facism and theocracy -- well, keep an eye out!
Also, classical liberalism
is right wing.
All I can say is that I sure hope you're not a Professor of Logic.
I think instead of putting words in my mouth, you'd be so much better off just looking at the things I actually said. None of it was as simplistic as "Muslims hate our freedoms", and if that was what you took from my post, you need to try harder.
It wasn't a "handful of protestors" marching in support of Palestine, it was all of them. Every single one of them marching in support of a territory, Gaza, which punishes gay men with up to ten years in prison - if they're not lynched first.
Also, I'm a social liberal, but classical liberalism is not something that can be easily pigeonholed in any wing either.
Qooper on 23/10/2023 at 19:14
Quote Posted by Aja
There's valid points to be made about the treatment of LGBT people in Palestine, but to use it as justification for the subjugation of an entire people is just sinister.
Hang on Aja, you're reading words that SD didn't write. He didn't use this as justification for anything.
Quote:
This issue is so much more complex than "Muslims hate our freedoms," and I get angry because you take a trivial fact like that a handful of protestors out of 100,000 are transphobes and then extend it to the entire situation as though it's some smoking gun.
Unless SD is right and has a point? Please, don't view Islam with rose-tinted glasses. No one should be under any illusions about Islam. In 2013 there was an Islam peace conference in Oslo, Norway. (
https://www.samharris.org/blog/islam-or-islamophobia2) Sam Harris posted about it in his blog, and also included this video:
[video=youtube;XHLKFFq74Gk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHLKFFq74Gk[/video]
EDIT:
Quote Posted by Tocky
There is no wonder we didn't want this discussion. Nothing works.
It's important to discuss. Sharing ideas and information has value. If a thread has nothing but flames it probably is a waste of time, but the discussion in this thread has been civil and I appreciate everyone's input so far.
